Revue MSR T43 Canon Pinnion adjustment - it doesn't have one !

[mikepilk]

This MSR T43 movement puzzled me as there is no cannon pinion. 

Cleaned and re-assembled it runs nicely, but the minute hand slips slightly, and it's pretty loose changing time. 

A bit of investigation found that part 207 in the picture is called 'Minute pinion with tube' and does the job of the cannon pinion.

I didn't know this when I cleaned the movement, so I want to take it apart - just pushing tweezers in to the gap isn't doing it.

Any ideas how to separate it ?

It's going to be a bit delicate to adjust, I haven't tried tightening pinions, and this is a small part.

 

 

[clockboy]

That's a new one for me. Can to adjust the pinion without separating it. I use a anvil type stump with my jeweling tool. You just need to achieve a little friction. 

[mikepilk]

Just now, clockboy said:

That's a new one for me. Can to adjust the pinion without separating it. I use a anvil type stump with my jeweling tool. You just need to achieve a little friction. 

I think I'll do that. As it's a bit loose I guess there's no point trying to split it to clean it.

I'll try using one of the fine pushers in my jeweling tool.

[clockboy]

Be careful if you go to far it will be extremely difficult to reverse the indent.

[nickelsilver]

If you try to increase the friction mounted you'll actually decrease it. Really.

There's a special tool for separating these (I'll post a pic when I'm back in the shop Monday) but minus that you can grab them with thin tweezers in the middle and slide them up using them as a pair of wedges.

[WatchMaker]

I had an issue with this type of movement (a T56) last year ... you might be interested to read this posting: https://www.watchrepairtalk.com/topic/7678-msr-t56-hands-not-moving-advice-please/

Mine was an odd situation and a double whammy (slipping hand caused by cannon pinion and slightly loose hand).

Let us know how you get on.

[mikepilk]

1 hour ago, WatchMaker said:

I had an issue with this type of movement (a T56) last year ... you might be interested to read this posting: https://www.watchrepairtalk.com/topic/7678-msr-t56-hands-not-moving-advice-please/

Mine was an odd situation and a double whammy (slipping hand caused by cannon pinion and slightly loose hand).

Let us know how you get on.

The cannon pinion was loose. I managed to split it by pushing it up the tweezers using some pegwood. Then the scary task of trying to tighten it - my first. 

I shoved a broach up it,  but the only tool in the staking set pointy enough was the thing used to centre the holes. One (very nervous) tap with the hammer and . The friction moving the hands seemed perfect. 

Left the watch running for a couple of hours ..... and the minute hand had slipped a minute. A few minutes later I spotted your response. A lateral push on the minute hand showed it to be very loose.

Or I thought it was. A closer look shows the hand is not slipping, but there is some play - must be the gears. I need to get the dial off for another look.

[nickelsilver]

The cannon pinion was loose. I managed to split it by pushing it up the tweezers using some pegwood. Then the scary task of trying to tighten it - my first. 
I shoved a broach up it,  but the only tool in the staking set pointy enough was the thing used to centre the holes. One (very nervous) tap with the hammer and . The friction moving the hands seemed perfect. 
Left the watch running for a couple of hours ..... and the minute hand had slipped a minute. A few minutes later I spotted your response. A lateral push on the minute hand showed it to be very loose.
Or I thought it was. A closer look shows the hand is not slipping, but there is some play - must be the gears. I need to get the dial off for another look.

There's always some backlash in the gears (except for some rare antibacklash gearing in a very few modern pieces). Try setting clockwise on the last movement of the hands.

[nickelsilver]

Here's the puller (more of a "separator"). Not sure if anyone still sells them, but if you see one you'll know what it is.

[mikepilk]

1 hour ago, nickelsilver said:

Here's the puller (more of a "separator"). Not sure if anyone still sells them, but if you see one you'll know what it is.

Don't remember seeing one on ebay, but now I'll know what to look out for 

[mikepilk]

On 10/7/2018 at 5:16 PM, WatchMaker said:

I had an issue with this type of movement (a T56) last year ... you might be interested to read this posting: https://www.watchrepairtalk.com/topic/7678-msr-t56-hands-not-moving-advice-please/

Mine was an odd situation and a double whammy (slipping hand caused by cannon pinion and slightly loose hand).

Let us know how you get on.

Hi @WatchMaker. Do you have any pics of the movement. I think I might be missing a spring !

The pic I found shows parts 476 minute wheel spring and 476.1 minute wheel spring holder - neither of which I have.

There is a bit of movement in the minute wheel - it does look like it needs a spring to hold it in place.

[mikepilk]

pics

[WatchMaker]

Hi @mikepilk - yes there should be a spring here.

I've searched back through photos I've taken and fortunately I've found one that should help as attached. This is when I was trying to fathom why my hands weren't turning ... hence the temporary blue dot on the minute wheel. 

I'm not sure if your parts diagram is misleading. So whilst, yes, there should be a spring (476) I certainly do not recall any separate spring holder (476.1). Are you referencing the 'Revue GT44' sheet which, whilst I appreciate is based on the MSR T43 series, might have subtle differences? If I look at the base plate in your diagram for instance there is a very clear hole / gap in the region above where the minute wheel would go ... but on my base plate this was all solid metal. The recess the spring would go in my base plate was essentially a capsule shaped recess i.e. an 'inbuilt' spring holder rather than a separate part.  If you look at the data sheet on the Cousins site (at https://www.cousinsuk.com/PDF/categories/6295_MSR T43.pdf) this would seem to confirm with only a 476 referenced.

What is your base plate like? Assuming it is T43-like-solid I'm happy to get the spare T-series movement I have in my collection and disassemble around this region to give you a close up of the spring so you can get a (better) idea. From memory it is not quite the shape shown in your diagram and had a simpler profile with the spring providing just a modicum of tension on the minute wheel.

[mikepilk]

15 minutes ago, WatchMaker said:

Hi @mikepilk - yes there should be a spring here.

I've searched back through photos I've taken and fortunately I've found one that should help as attached. This is when I was trying to fathom why my hands weren't turning ... hence the temporary blue dot on the minute wheel. 

I'm not sure if your parts diagram is misleading. So whilst, yes, there should be a spring (476) I certainly do not recall any separate spring holder (476.1). Are you referencing the 'Revue GT44' sheet which, whilst I appreciate is based on the MSR T43 series, might have subtle differences? If I look at the base plate in your diagram for instance there is a very clear hole / gap in the region above where the minute wheel would go ... but on my base plate this was all solid metal. The recess the spring would go in my base plate was essentially a capsule shaped recess i.e. an 'inbuilt' spring holder rather than a separate part.  If you look at the data sheet on the Cousins site (at https://www.cousinsuk.com/PDF/categories/6295_MSR T43.pdf) this would seem to confirm with only a 476 referenced.

What is your base plate like? Assuming it is T43-like-solid I'm happy to get the spare T-series movement I have in my collection and disassemble around this region to give you a close up of the spring so you can get a (better) idea. From memory it is not quite the shape shown in your diagram and had a simpler profile with the spring providing just a modicum of tension on the minute wheel.

I managed find a suitable spring to fit in the cut-out without needing any holding - you can see the cut-out in the pic I posted above. 

Maybe I need a slightly stronger spring as the minute hand doesn't always quite line up with the markers on the dial - sometimes a fraction behind, sometimes a fraction ahead !

It's an odd movement. I've never had such problems with the motion works. It's always been the balance/gear train- which are fine. 

I'm getting good amplitude and it's keeping very good time.

 

[WatchMaker]

Sorry @mikepilk - the device I was looking on put that movement diagram front and centre and I hadn't scrolled up a little to see the very clear pictures of your actual movement too! Oops!

That's what I was checking though and, so yes, you have the capsule shaped recess for the spring. There is then definitely no separate spring holder. I've used your picture to draw in the spring profile as I remember it and attach this pic i.e. the spring just providing a pretty light touch to the minute wheel.

I had a lot of problems with this movement type too.  With hands slipping I even took a cannon pinion from a 'spare', and fully working, T43 to put in my T56 but this didn't cure things! Grr! I put a conclusion to why this might have been in my earlier posting I referenced; it seems that separate cannon pinion is a tricky number. I resorted to dots on wheels and monitoring to isolate the issues (plural) I was having. I'm here for moral support if you need it! 

To cheer you up I also attach a pic of my T56 based Revue which, I'm glad to say, was eventually fixed! Sounds like you're almost there too! 

[mikepilk]

7 minutes ago, WatchMaker said:

Sorry @mikepilk - the device I was looking on put that movement diagram front and centre and I hadn't scrolled up a little to see the very clear pictures of your actual movement too! Oops!

That's what I was checking though and, so yes, you have the capsule shaped recess for the spring. There is then definitely no separate spring holder. I've used your picture to draw in the spring profile as I remember it and attach this pic i.e. the spring just providing a pretty light touch to the minute wheel.

I had a lot of problems with this movement type too.  With hands slipping I even took a cannon pinion from a 'spare', and fully working, T43 to put in my T56 but this didn't cure things! Grr! I put a conclusion to why this might have been in my earlier posting I referenced; it seems that separate cannon pinion is a tricky number. I resorted to dots on wheels and monitoring to isolate the issues (plural) I was having. I'm here for moral support if you need it! 

To cheer you up I also attach a pic of my T56 based Revue which, I'm glad to say, was eventually fixed! Sounds like you're almost there too! 

Looks good 

Funny that we should both have very similar problems. Maybe that's why there aren't many of these movements around? 

I think mine's good enough. I'm not going to mess any more unless I have too. I'll see after a couple of days wearing it.

I was looking for Revue movements after I was so impressed with the quality of the first one I got, a Cal 59 (pics below). All the parts just fitted together so well - lovely engineering.

Maybe the MSR aren't quite as good ?

[WatchMaker]

We seem to share very similar tastes! 

I have other Revue movement based watches and even had a small pocket watch movement I'd acquired that seemed too good to just sit in a drawer so I created my own wrist watch with it ... pic attached.  

MSR (Manufactures d'Horlogerie Suisses Reunies) was actually formed  in 1961 when four watch companies decided to join forces. These were Revue Thommen, Vulcain, Phénix and Buser (with Vertex and Marvin joining the MSR fold later). Which of this consortium designed our T43/T56 I'm unsure but I think the quality is still there. I'm of the opinion they were perhaps trying to have some USP and designing in something a bit different because of this! Of course we'd both rather they hadn't but we want things to be a bit challenging...! 

Edited October 14, 2018 by WatchMaker