Selfwinders hold less power when old.

[Nucejoe]

Selfwinders fully wind when new, not so after twnety year of use. Some hold so little power that renders the watch practically a pain.

Mainspring, general wear out of pivots, jewels...........etc.

Awaitng lots of advice, opinion, discusions.

Regards

 

 

 

 

 

[oldhippy]

Seiko use to recommend you have your watch serviced I think every 5 or 7 years. The servicing recommended replacing the barrel as a single unit. That is why with Seiko barrels they are not designed in the same way as others. You are not supposed to open them. Today because the units are obsolete, you have no alternative but to open and service, like any normal barrel. If you look after your watch and have it serviced properly by the recommendations then the problems you have pointed out should not happen.

[Nucejoe]

Hi and thank you, this brings another question to mind.  

How can we tell if a used h/s is good? By measuring stiffness or modulous of elasticity?

And what instruments are commonly used for such measuring?

Regards

 

[yankeedog]

I think the main culprits are dirt and old lubricant.I have a few old automatics that run very nicely, others not so much.From what I have seen unless something is broken , or it is extremely worn the average jeweled watch  will react nicely to a little tlc.

[Nucejoe]

55 minutes ago, yankeedog said:

I think the main culprits are dirt and old lubricant.I have a few old automatics that run very nicely, others not so much.From what I have seen unless something is broken , or it is extremely worn the average jeweled watch  will react nicely to a little tlc.

Hi, I got several including a Longine serviced by repairman of 55 years experience, which reserve inadequate power for practical use.

I agree with OH, some obsolete parts are unavailable, yet a dscent mainspring should work.

Hwo do we test a mainspring?

Regards

[JohnR725]

12 hours ago, Nucejoe said:

Selfwinders fully wind when new, not so after twnety year of use. Some hold so little power that renders the watch practically a pain.

Mainspring, general wear out of pivots, jewels...........etc.

Awaitng lots of advice, opinion, discusions.

Regards

I'm trying to make sure I understand the actual question? I assume what you're suggesting is 20 years ago a brand-new watch was purchased and 20 years later it's now seems to be defective or it's having an issue or it's no longer working like it did 20 years ago? Then I'm assuming between now and 20 years ago it's never been worked on are serviced it's one of those twenty-year watches?

This kind a discussion comes up quite a bit in the watch collectors groups. The very proud individual that has his fathers watch it's never been serviced they never paid those greedy watchmakers who charge way to much money for servicing their watch and it's still running great.

then there's a lot of variables here like was the watch run every single day or only occasionally? The environment like do you like to take your watch into the shower with you that seems you're really popular thing to do with watches. is it on an auto winder every single day so it's ready to go. it also depends on who made the watch and how many jeweled bearings versus non-jeweled bearings.

the problem is the watch is a mechanical device it has moving components. The moving components require lubrication to move properly. The lubrication even if it's synthetic may not last forever. Then the environmental problems the watch is in a case with rubber gaskets they don't last forever the rubber gets hard. Moisture gets into the watch even if it's a really really tiny quantities of moisture rust forms rust is a really nice grinding compound.

so unfortunately mechanical devices without proper lubrication wear out. Mainspring this may or may not last forever. The old blued steel Springs definitely don't last forever they tend to lose their springiness and just don't work at all anymore. The modern white Springs are supposed to last forever but they don't always. Then there's that pesky lubrication problem if the lubrication should get sticky or gummy or mix with rust that doesn't work very well. Then even if it does last forever it has a habit of spreading with time so there's basically no lubrication or not enough lubrication where it needs to be.

Then mainspring lubrication modern mainsprings are self lubricated mostly dry lubricants so other then eventually no longer being where it's supposed to be is not going to get gummy or sticky. But this does depend upon the manufacture Seiko has a non-dry lubricant. But for automatics there is something called breaking grease. It's applied to the barrel wall is a very strange grease. The breaking part is it holds the spring in place until almost the end where the spring breaks free and then it's a lubricant. When this disintegrates in a variety of ways the mainspring may not hold and it will slip prematurely. Or I've seen pictures of brass filings it's no longer lubricating at all whether it's holding or not is irrelevant brass filings in the mainspring barrel is not a good thing.

Then all of this is speculation until somebody takes the back off a looks at the watch. Unlike an automobile where you can lift up the hood checked to see if you still have a oil because you don't like to get it changed just drive it until it runs out you can't really take the back off and check the oil and see if it's still good after 20 years. So basically somebody has taken apart to see what's going on.

So while the watch companies are currently working on watches with longer and longer service intervals by figuring out ways to eliminate lubrication watches made 20 years ago don't fit in that category.

 

[oli]

I can think of be several causes for poor power reserve
- Inefficiency in the auto winding mechanism (can be caused by a number of things, e.g. wear, contaminants, and dry lubricant). 
- Mainspring bridle slipping too early during winding (usually a wear or lubrication issue in the mainspring barrel)
- Watch stopping before the mainspring is fully unwound (usually caused by particles/ dirt or a defective / worn part). In this case the full power reserve may have built up in the mainspring as it should, but watch stops when it comes to a lower state of wind.

[oldhippy]

15 hours ago, Nucejoe said:

Hi and thank you, this brings another question to mind.  

How can we tell if a used h/s is good? By measuring stiffness or modulous of elasticity?

And what instruments are commonly used for such measuring?

Regards

 

The answer is a minefield. There is so much on the internet about watch hairsprings your best bet is to use google. You will even find how they are made.

[Nucejoe]

On 9/24/2018 at 12:06 PM, oldhippy said:

 

The answer is a minefield. There is so much on the internet about watch hairsprings your best bet is to use google. You will even find how they are made.

Sorry,  My question was about instrruments measuring the stiffness or springness of MAINSPRING but somehow I have managed to misprint h/s instead.

Regards

 

[JohnR725]

I have this weird feeling I've seen a picture of a tool that does this perhaps but can't remember right now. The problem is a tool like this is only useful at the factory level. These very specialized tools and the specialized knowledge required to understand what you're looking at would never pay for itself at the watchmaking level.

[Nucejoe]

On 9/23/2018 at 11:50 PM, JohnR725 said:

I'm trying to make sure I understand the actual question? I assume what you're suggesting is 20 years ago a brand-new watch was purchased and 20 years later it's now seems to be defective or it's having an issue or it's no longer working like it did 20 years ago? Then I'm assuming between now and 20 years ago it's never been worked on are serviced it's one of those twenty-year watches?

This kind a discussion comes up quite a bit in the watch collectors groups. The very proud individual that has his fathers watch it's never been serviced they never paid those greedy watchmakers who charge way to much money for servicing their watch and it's still running great.

then there's a lot of variables here like was the watch run every single day or only occasionally? The environment like do you like to take your watch into the shower with you that seems you're really popular thing to do with watches. is it on an auto winder every single day so it's ready to go. it also depends on who made the watch and how many jeweled bearings versus non-jeweled bearings.

the problem is the watch is a mechanical device it has moving components. The moving components require lubrication to move properly. The lubrication even if it's synthetic may not last forever. Then the environmental problems the watch is in a case with rubber gaskets they don't last forever the rubber gets hard. Moisture gets into the watch even if it's a really really tiny quantities of moisture rust forms rust is a really nice grinding compound.

so unfortunately mechanical devices without proper lubrication wear out. Mainspring this may or may not last forever. The old blued steel Springs definitely don't last forever they tend to lose their springiness and just don't work at all anymore. The modern white Springs are supposed to last forever but they don't always. Then there's that pesky lubrication problem if the lubrication should get sticky or gummy or mix with rust that doesn't work very well. Then even if it does last forever it has a habit of spreading with time so there's basically no lubrication or not enough lubrication where it needs to be.

Then mainspring lubrication modern mainsprings are self lubricated mostly dry lubricants so other then eventually no longer being where it's supposed to be is not going to get gummy or sticky. But this does depend upon the manufacture Seiko has a non-dry lubricant. But for automatics there is something called breaking grease. It's applied to the barrel wall is a very strange grease. The breaking part is it holds the spring in place until almost the end where the spring breaks free and then it's a lubricant. When this disintegrates in a variety of ways the mainspring may not hold and it will slip prematurely. Or I've seen pictures of brass filings it's no longer lubricating at all whether it's holding or not is irrelevant brass filings in the mainspring barrel is not a good thing.

Then all of this is speculation until somebody takes the back off a looks at the watch. Unlike an automobile where you can lift up the hood checked to see if you still have a oil because you don't like to get it changed just drive it until it runs out you can't really take the back off and check the oil and see if it's still good after 20 years. So basically somebody has taken apart to see what's going on.

So while the watch companies are currently working on watches with longer and longer service intervals by figuring out ways to eliminate lubrication watches made 20 years ago don't fit in that category.

 

Thanks, admitedly my post is unclear, lucky this shortcoming turned into a blessing in disguise, since you have covered most general causes I didn,t think of before.

Regards