eta 1080 ETA 1080 "cap jewels" oiling help needed

[VWatchie]

These jewels are from my very first ETA movement that I'm servicing (cal. 1080), and none of the movements I've been working on so far (Vostoks, Poljots, and a Unitas 6498) has had jewels like these. My question is simply how to oil them? They do look a lot like cap jewels and maybe that's what they are called? If I were to guess I would say that they should be oiled the same way that spring cap jewels are oiled, but I'd really like to know for sure. And, while I'm at it, what's the purpose of these non-springed "cap jewels"? I've also seen them in pictures of some really old movements having a balance without a shock spring.

The movement comes from my grandfather's (born 1910) Ernest Borel Incastar which we believe he bought sometime in the early 1960-ties. It's a family heirloom, and I've been waiting to service it until having worked up some confidence. I had no idea it harboured an ETA movement so that was a pleasant and rather exciting surprise. As far as I know, it has never been serviced.

As can be seen in the above picture it has a really interesting regulator mechanism, and I actually found this ad for it on eBay. Setting the rate I would assume is just a matter of rotating that five-pointed "star", but I wonder if that entire arm can be slid to regulate the beat error?

Edited September 14, 2018 by VWatchie

[JohnR725]

jewels like this are used to reduce friction. I have an image where you can see the side view Then for lubrication you can try to put a small drop on the cap and carefully put it back in place without moving it around but that usually isn't the best way.I also have an image showing how to do that. then at other option for lubrication is a automatic oiler. You can insert it through the whole from the backside the oil will flow out.

[rodabod]

Those superfluous cap jewels were often added when there was competition between manufacturers to see who could have the largest jewel count. Felsa even started decorating wheels with jewels just to get the numbers up. 

As John says, you can oil these like any other cap jewel. I sometimes add a minuscule amount of oil to the end of the jewel hole to help the capillary action. 

[rodabod]

Having said that, having just additional cap jewels on the escape wheel is not unreasonable in my opinion. Just not all the way through the train!

[rogart63]

 

22 hours ago, VWatchie said:

 

 

These jewels are from my very first ETA movement that I'm servicing (cal. 1080), and none of the movements I've been working on so far (Vostoks, Poljots, and a Unitas 6498) has had jewels like these. My question is simply how to oil them? They do look a lot like cap jewels and maybe that's what they are called? If I were to guess I would say that they should be oiled the same way that spring cap jewels are oiled, but I'd really like to know for sure. And, while I'm at it, what's the purpose of these non-springed "cap jewels"? I've also seen them in pictures of some really old movements having a balance without a shock spring.

The movement comes from my grandfather's (born 1910) Ernest Borel Incastar which we believe he bought sometime in the early 1960-ties. It's a family heirloom, and I've been waiting to service it until having worked up some confidence. I had no idea it harboured an ETA movement so that was a pleasant and rather exciting surprise. As far as I know, it has never been serviced.

 

As can be seen in the above picture it has a really interesting regulator mechanism, and I actually found this ad for it on eBay. Setting the rate I would assume is just a matter of rotating that five-pointed "star", but I wonder if that entire arm can be slid to regulate the beat error?

It's a pain in the ... to put back  the hairspring on this incastar . Easier to remove . If you need to  replace the balance. 

[nickelsilver]

For this type of jewel, also seen on the balance in older pieces, I assemble then oil. Drop of oil in the concave hole jewel, then a thin wire to push it to the cap(I use hairspring pins but there are also commercial 'oil pushing wires' for this. Gold colored handle). Keep feeding until the oil circle is correct. This goes for any non shock protected jewels.

[VWatchie]

So, I’ve started to reassemble my grandfather’s ETA 1080 and went about it as I always do, with the train wheels. However, when mounting the train wheel bridge I just couldn’t get the pivot of the escape wheel to reach into the cap jewelled pivot hole on the bridge (seen in the first picture in my first post above).

Scratching my head, I removed the escape wheel and inspected it, suspecting the pivot might be damaged. It was not, it looked perfect. So, I tried it again and by holding down the bridge with some peg wood, I could get the pivot to just barely reach into the jewel hole. Yet, as soon as I tried to secure the bridge the pivot would fall out of the hole. Having struggled with this for probably more than half an hour, I began to feel pretty frustrated.

I’m not a very technical person, I don’t have a lot of experience of watch repairing, and in all honesty I guess I’m not too smart, but all of sudden I realized, or rather remembered, that the jewel hole on the dial side has a cap jewel as well and that the escape wheel pivot on the dial side probably fell too deep into the jewel hole as I hadn’t mounted its cap jewel.

Said and done, I oiled the cap as instructed above (it worked out perfectly, thanks!), mounted it on the dial side and then tried to mount the train wheel bridge again. Bingo! This time around the escape wheel pivot reached into to the jewel hole on bridge perfectly. At this point, I felt pretty proud of myself! 

Well, just thought I’d share in case someone else who’s new to cap jewels happens to find this thread in the future. I'll try nickelsilver's method the next time around which would have eliminated this problem.

Thank you all for helping out!

Edited September 17, 2018 by VWatchie

[VWatchie]

So finished reassembling and lubricating my grandfather's ETA 1080 today and took a couple of pictures of it before putting it back into its case.

For anyone interested I assembled the movement in the order shown by these pictures (000A.jpg, 000B.jpg, 001.jpg to 073.jpg). The pictures were taken during disassembly so the parts in the pictures are somewhat dirty. The pictures were intended for my personal use, so some of the text and coloured arrows might seem somewhat cryptical.

And finally, a slow-motion video of the balance in motion can be seen here. This watch was last used some 40 years ago or so, so just wonderful to see it tick again! 

This was my first ETA movement and compared the Vostoks and Poljots I've been working on before I must say the fit and finish is indeed a notch or two better. I really enjoyed doing my first Swiss watch (except for the Unitas 6498 in Mark's watch repair lessons).

Edited September 19, 2018 by VWatchie

[JBerry]

So finished reassembling and lubricating my grandfather's ETA 1080 today and took a couple of pictures of it before putting it back into its case.


For anyone interested I assembled the movement in the order shown by these pictures (000A.jpg, 000B.jpg, 001.jpg to 073.jpg). The pictures were taken during disassembly so the parts in the pictures are somewhat dirty. The pictures were intended for my personal use, so some of the text and coloured arrows might seem somewhat cryptical.
And finally, a slow-motion video of the balance in motion can be

. This watch was last used some 40 years ago or so, so just wonderful to see it tick again! [emoji4]
This was my first ETA movement and compared the Vostoks and Poljots I've been working on before I must say the fit and finish is indeed a notch or two better. I really enjoyed doing my first Swiss watch (except for the Unitas 6498 in Mark's watch repair lessons).

Great job! I'm sure the disassembly pictures will come in useful to someone. Beautiful watch by the way! Your Grandfather had great taste

Sent from my Redmi 4X using Tapatalk

[VWatchie]

On ‎9‎/‎20‎/‎2018 at 5:57 PM, JBerry said:

Great job! I'm sure the disassembly pictures will come in useful to someone. Beautiful watch by the way! Your Grandfather had great taste

Sent from my Redmi 4X using Tapatalk
 

Thank you very much for your warm words, and what a great way to remember my grandfather. My 9-year-old son is actually named after him.

Oh, just to make sure; the disassembly pictures serve as assembly pictures but were taken during the dismantling. However, as I learned, the dial side escape wheel cap jewel must be put in place before the train wheel bridge can be secured (as explained in my previous post).

Edited September 21, 2018 by VWatchie

[VWatchie]

On 9/16/2018 at 6:39 PM, nickelsilver said:

For this type of jewel, also seen on the balance in older pieces, I assemble then oil. Drop of oil in the concave hole jewel, then a thin wire to push it to the cap(I use hairspring pins but there are also commercial 'oil pushing wires' for this. Gold colored handle). Keep feeding until the oil circle is correct. This goes for any non shock protected jewels.

Or, could we just as well use an automatic oiler such as the Bergeon 1A?

[Nucejoe]

I guess a drawback with automatic oiler is, you can,t be ceratin of successful oiling without actualy seeing the oil.

 In your demonstration of auto oiler when you lifetd the endstone, the amount and spread of the oil looked " just perfect" to me ,  despite  later advice from knowlegable members and books indicated  60% of endstones surface area,  I remain unconvinced.

 

   Auto oiler dispenses the perfect amount and by your approach, right in the center, where it should be.

Hoping extra oil, stuck between endstone and jewel will flow back to center and pivots  seems wishful thinking, I have faced too many cases of oil dried between the jewels in vintage watches. 

Regards joe

[VWatchie]

Good point Joe! I somehow thought, or rather hoped, that an automatic oiler also would take care of oiling the jewel hole (not just the end stone), but I guess "the oil pushing wire" or hs pin (taper pin I assume?) that @nickelsilvermentions is the way to go.

[nickelsilver]

14 minutes ago, VWatchie said:

Good point Joe! I somehow thought, or rather hoped, that an automatic oiler also would take care of oiling the jewel hole (not just the end stone), but I guess "the oil pushing wire" or hs pin (taper pin I assume?) that @nickelsilvermentions is the way to go.

There's a commercially made "oil pusher", Bergeon doesn't list it anymore but Horotec does. It has very very fine needle like tips, just for getting the oil through the hole jewel on to the cap. Why it's called an Incabloc oiler is a mystery, as it would be useless on 99% of incablocs (only very few are like Kif, where the chaton doesn't have a "chimney").

It's handy, and fragile, and won't get into the very tiny hole jewels like on an old ladies model LeCoultre or similar (often 0.07mm jewels). For those I use fine hairspring taper pins.

Edited August 3, 2019 by nickelsilver

[Nucejoe]

39 minutes ago, VWatchie said:

Good point Joe! I somehow thought, or rather hoped, that an automatic oiler also would take care of oiling the jewel hole (not just the end stone), but I guess "the oil pushing wire" or hs pin (taper pin I assume?) that @nickelsilvermentions is the way to go.

Following your demonstration I though I want one of them auto oilers, but run indianapoliss 500 upon discovering the price of the three piece set.

[VWatchie]

1 hour ago, Nucejoe said:

Following your demonstration I though I want one of them auto oilers, but run indianapoliss 500 upon discovering the price of the three piece set.

I don't think you need the three-piece set, just the 1A. As most Bergeon tools it is still silly expensive, but I personally just couldn't live without it.

[VWatchie]

1 hour ago, nickelsilver said:

There's a commercially made "oil pusher", Bergeon doesn't list it anymore but Horotec does. It has very very fine needle like tips, just for getting the oil through the hole jewel on to the cap. Why it's called an Incabloc oiler is a mystery, as it would be useless on 99% of incablocs (only very few are like Kif, where the chaton doesn't have a "chimney").

It's handy, and fragile, and won't get into the very tiny hole jewels like on an old ladies model LeCoultre or similar (often 0.07mm jewels). For those I use fine hairspring taper pins.

May I ask what site the screenshot is from? Cousins have it for £10.50 (£12.60 with tax). I've placed it in my shopping basket so that I won't forget it when I place my next order. Thanks a bunch! 

Edited August 3, 2019 by VWatchie

[VWatchie]

1 hour ago, Nucejoe said:

Following your demonstration I though I want one of them auto oilers, but run indianapoliss 500 upon discovering the price of the three piece set.

Just checked the price for the 1A on Cousins and it is £76.75 with 20 % tax included. Just order it, you know you want it! 

[nickelsilver]

May I ask what site the screenshot is from? Cousins have it for £10.50 (£12.60 with tax). I've placed it in my shopping basket so that I won't forget it when I place my next order. Thanks a bunch! 

It's from Horotec's website, they have the 700 page catalog in pdf with a pretty good index.

Bergeon should get an award for least user friendly site, ugh.

[Nucejoe]

30 minutes ago, VWatchie said:

Just checked the price for the 1A on Cousins and it is £76.75 with 20 % tax included. Just order it, you know you want it! 

No thanks, I keep pushing taperd  HS and oil with acupuncture needles. 

 

[DavidMasters]

On 8/3/2019 at 1:44 PM, Nucejoe said:

No thanks, I keep pushing taperd  HS and oil with acupuncture needles. 

 

My lovely wife is in the medical profession and she brought me a couple hypodermic type needle things that are thinner than anything I had on my bench. I use them for oilers and although I'm no professional they work very well for me.

[VWatchie]

On 9/16/2018 at 6:39 PM, nickelsilver said:

For this type of jewel, also seen on the balance in older pieces, I assemble then oil. Drop of oil in the concave hole jewel, then a thin wire to push it to the cap(I use hairspring pins but there are also commercial 'oil pushing wires' for this. Gold colored handle). Keep feeding until the oil circle is correct. This goes for any non shock protected jewels.

So, more than a year later I bought this "golden tool" and used it on a couple of diafix cap jewels (Orient movement). I first considered using my Bergeon 1A auto oiler. However, the jewel hole for the escape wheel pivot was too small for the auto oiler, so then I remembered your post.

As I didn’t know how much oil to apply, I used my smallest oiler and placed the drop right on the jewel hole (concave side, of course, as the other side has the cap jewel). I then poked the oil down to the cap jewel and it spread out really nicely. However, the amount of oil wasn’t enough, so I placed another drop on the hole. To my surprise, the capillary force that had already been established automatically drew the oil to the cap jewel making the circle the desired size.

So, basically just wanted to thank you again for tip and the instruction @nickelsilver. Much appreciated!
 

Edited March 11, 2020 by VWatchie

[CaptCalvin]

I've never had a need for these. Just leaving the oil on the concave space and assembling always worked for me. The oil always get sucked onto the cap jewel side. Just make sure the pivot finds its way into the hole smoothly (usually does) and not be allowed to wiggle around and spread the oil all over before connecting with the cap jewel. 

[nickelsilver]

I've never had a need for these. Just leaving the oil on the concave space and assembling always worked for me. The oil always get sucked onto the cap jewel side. Just make sure the pivot finds its way into the hole smoothly (usually does) and not be allowed to wiggle around and spread the oil all over before connecting with the cap jewel. 

It works, but when you check the oil quantity and it's lacking it's more of a pain than using a pin. Or you leave it lacking. When I was working in a trade shop while in school I did the way you describe but I was getting 10 USD for a manual wind, 11 for automatic, in 1998, not 1950 hahaha. Had to make some concessions.

The boss cleaned assembled, barrel out (opened but spring in), then pulled the balance and ran through a second machine with "lube" in the final rinse.

I skipped the second machine, disassembled all the movement (he'd leave cap jewels assembled too), did train freedom check etc. I didn't have one comeback. I'm sure the time he saved with the cut rate measures cost him more in his comebacks.

Not trying not harangue, it's an old school technique you describe, but pushing through with a pin is a tiny extra step to ensure proper oiling to get it on the cap correctly before assembling.

[CaptCalvin]

27 minutes ago, nickelsilver said:

It works, but when you check the oil quantity and it's lacking it's more of a pain than using a pin. Or you leave it lacking. When I was working in a trade shop while in school I did the way you describe but I was getting 10 USD for a manual wind, 11 for automatic, in 1998, not 1950 hahaha. Had to make some concessions.

The boss cleaned assembled, barrel out (opened but spring in), then pulled the balance and ran through a second machine with "lube" in the final rinse.

I skipped the second machine, disassembled all the movement (he'd leave cap jewels assembled too), did train freedom check etc. I didn't have one comeback. I'm sure the time he saved with the cut rate measures cost him more in his comebacks.

Not trying not harangue, it's an old school technique you describe, but pushing through with a pin is a tiny extra step to ensure proper oiling to get it on the cap correctly before assembling.

Well if that should happen I would take the bridge off and apply more. I dont remember that ever happening to me though. I always apply a big o heap. Hard to imagine the space between the jewels ever running out for how much ever you can fit in the concave before running off to the side.