Jump to content
Stian

Need help with setting up a Schaublin 70 motor

Recommended Posts

Hi gurus,

I recently got myself an old Schaublin 70 lathe but am in a bind over how to set the motor up and was hoping you might be able to help. 

The lathe has a 3 phase motor that is fixed onto an old table with tool drawers etc. It has a five pin 16A CEE plug that I cannot connect to my 220V socket in my house, and I assume I need a VFD plus an adapter to connect everything, but I really don't know. Would anyone be able to say more by looking at the attached pictures? 

-- 
Best regards,
Stian

Copy of 20180819_185732.jpg

Copy of 20180903_124900.jpg

Copy of 20180906_072955.jpg

Copy of 20180906_073007.jpg

Copy of 20180913_101543.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Do you not have 400v three-phase available? If not a VFD is definitely the way to go. There should be a diagram in the electrical cover showing the different hookups for 230v or 400v. As to sizing and wiring up a vfd, I suggest asking at practicalmachinist.com . They have a subforum just for vfds and transformers etc. with very knowledgeable people. I've wired in a number of 3 phase motors but am not confident enough to advise someone else on it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, oldhippy said:

No help on here by the look of things. I see you are in the Netherlands, why don't you ask a qualified electrician near you. I think that would be the best and safest way.

Hi oldhippy,

I had an electrician come by my house yesterday and he looked at this like it was an alien object. Very disappointing, that's when I decided to ask here... But I agree in your point and will try finding a more qualified person.

-- 
Thanks,
Stian

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
32 minutes ago, nickelsilver said:

Do you not have 400v three-phase available? If not a VFD is definitely the way to go. There should be a diagram in the electrical cover showing the different hookups for 230v or 400v. As to sizing and wiring up a vfd, I suggest asking at practicalmachinist.com . They have a subforum just for vfds and transformers etc. with very knowledgeable people. I've wired in a number of 3 phase motors but am not confident enough to advise someone else on it.

Thanks, and I posted the same message at PM just before posting here :) 

My home only has a 220V Shuko socket, so I'd need a transformer and adapter as well, I suppose. I'll do some more digging and see if someone closer may be able to help.

--
Thanks,
Stian

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

With the motor set for 230 you'll only need the vfd. The PM guys will have you sorted soon .

Thanks, and I posted the same message at PM just before posting here  
My home only has a 220V Shuko socket, so I'd need a transformer and adapter as well, I suppose. I'll do some more digging and see if someone closer may be able to help.
--
Thanks,
Stian

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I just did this for a Hardinge lathe. 

Generally a VFD is to allow variable speed from a motor. But in my case, the VFD is 110v single phase power and 220v three phase output. 

I fixed the cycles (hZ) at 60 rather than varying it so it becomes a phase splitter/step up transformer. 

 Since you have 220v (single phase I presume) a 220v input inverter should have a 220v three phase output for the motor and you meerly fix the frequency as I did. 

If the motor spins the wrong way once hooked up, just swap two of the three wires going into the motor. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 9/14/2018 at 9:07 PM, Tudor said:

I just did this for a Hardinge lathe. 

Generally a VFD is to allow variable speed from a motor. But in my case, the VFD is 110v single phase power and 220v three phase output. 

I fixed the cycles (hZ) at 60 rather than varying it so it becomes a phase splitter/step up transformer. 

 Since you have 220v (single phase I presume) a 220v input inverter should have a 220v three phase output for the motor and you meerly fix the frequency as I did. 

If the motor spins the wrong way once hooked up, just swap two of the three wires going into the motor. 

Thanks! 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm on PM more than here (different handle) and yup, there are plenty there who know this stuff well.  I can get you started as I just did this....still have it all sitting on a shelf under the bench (will weld a steel enclosure for it)

You definitely want to use the 3P motor; 3P is smoother than single phase and the OEM motor is beautifully balanced.   My motor was only 440 volt, no 220 option so I first ran a household 220V to a 1P transformer, stepped it up, and then ran it into a VFD to create the 3P.

1P in, 3P out is a common use for a VFD.  Basically a VFD takes power in, rectifies it and then draws from that DC bus when sending the power out to the motor.  In powering that DC bus it usually doesn't much care how the power gets there, BUT if you're supplying it with 1P instead of 3P basically 4 of the 6 diodes are handling all the amps.  You compensate for this buy overrating - using a larger VFD (in HP or watts) than what you need if it was 3P in.   Over rating is the common approach and works, however you can also hunt around for 1P in VFD's, afaik its just marketing....nothing is accomplished over using a 3P in and over rating. (the later being likely more common and easier to find)

There is a caveat on that - sometimes a VFD will check for voltage on all three inputs and not work if its not there.  I haven't come across that, but its possible.   I've used Eurodrive VFD's and there is no issue with them, just over rate and away you go.  Fortunately for these small motors VFD's are cheap (on my big machines some are 7.5 hp, VFD cost gets large so I use a homemade rotary phase converter to get 3P).  A shot of the SEW Eurodrive I used is below...as I say, installation is a work in progress so it looks rather unprofessional until I get it in an enclosure.  Eurodrive are the worst manuals ever, but they work.  Anyway from the shot you can get the model, the 220V version of this should get you working without needing a transformer (but you need to unsure the motor hookup is for 220)

The VFD gives you some other advantages like a ramp up.  I had a bad time with the lathe throwing belts starting in the high speed belt position.  a 1 sec ramp up solved this, it took away the jerk on startup.

One more really important point.  DO NOT use any switch gear between the VFD and motor; i.e. do not run from the VFD to on/off switch then to the motor.  There'll be a terminal block on the VFD for low voltage remote control of speed, direction and on/off.  You can use the OEM switch with these if you want it to look the same or just use a toggle and pots....but put nothing between motor and VFD!

Lets see some photos of the lathe!

 

Y1tu3LU.jpg

scBJfBK.jpg

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by measuretwice

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
19 hours ago, measuretwice said:

I'm on PM more than here (different handle) and yup, there are plenty there who know this stuff well.  I can get you started as I just did this....still have it all sitting on a shelf under the bench (will weld a steel enclosure for it)

You definitely want to use the 3P motor; 3P is smoother than single phase and the OEM motor is beautifully balanced.   My motor was only 440 volt, no 220 option so I first ran a household 220V to a 1P transformer, stepped it up, and then ran it into a VFD to create the 3P.

1P in, 3P out is a common use for a VFD.  Basically a VFD takes power in, rectifies it and then draws from that DC bus when sending the power out to the motor.  In powering that DC bus it usually doesn't much care how the power gets there, BUT if you're supplying it with 1P instead of 3P basically 4 of the 6 diodes are handling all the amps.  You compensate for this buy overrating - using a larger VFD (in HP or watts) than what you need if it was 3P in.   Over rating is the common approach and works, however you can also hunt around for 1P in VFD's, afaik its just marketing....nothing is accomplished over using a 3P in and over rating. (the later being likely more common and easier to find)

There is a caveat on that - sometimes a VFD will check for voltage on all three inputs and not work if its not there.  I haven't come across that, but its possible.   I've used Eurodrive VFD's and there is no issue with them, just over rate and away you go.  Fortunately for these small motors VFD's are cheap (on my big machines some are 7.5 hp, VFD cost gets large so I use a homemade rotary phase converter to get 3P).  A shot of the SEW Eurodrive I used is below...as I say, installation is a work in progress so it looks rather unprofessional until I get it in an enclosure.  Eurodrive are the worst manuals ever, but they work.  Anyway from the shot you can get the model, the 220V version of this should get you working without needing a transformer (but you need to unsure the motor hookup is for 220)

The VFD gives you some other advantages like a ramp up.  I had a bad time with the lathe throwing belts starting in the high speed belt position.  a 1 sec ramp up solved this, it took away the jerk on startup.

One more really important point.  DO NOT use any switch gear between the VFD and motor; i.e. do not run from the VFD to on/off switch then to the motor.  There'll be a terminal block on the VFD for low voltage remote control of speed, direction and on/off.  You can use the OEM switch with these if you want it to look the same or just use a toggle and pots....but put nothing between motor and VFD!

Lets see some photos of the lathe!

 

Y1tu3LU.jpg

scBJfBK.jpg

 

 

 

 

 

That is a very nice setup... drool :) Thanks for your tips!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I noticed you mention sending the power direct to the motor from the VFD, and I nearly did that myself on the Hardinge; however, that uses a dual-winding motor- so it has one set of windings for "low" speed and a second set for "high" speed. If I use the VFD direct, I cannot use that feature. (I understand I could wire it to "high" only and let the VFD control speed)

Also it runs in reverse as well. So, you have four speeds: FWD and REV, high and low in each. And, when you use the levers on the lathe to change, it applies the spindle brake mechanically. I'd have to eliminate the mechanical brake feature if I ran it direct, to avoid burning up the belts.

So, what I ended up doing is to bring the three-phase from the VFD direct to the output of the main contactor in the lathe. Doing this, I have full functionality of the lathe as intended.

The VFD deals with this just fine, although going to "stop" (with the brake), from "fast" the VFD detects a problem and throttles back because the motor stops spinning faster than the VFD thinks it should. SO, you have to be patient and not run it like it was full production in 1960. Otherwise, it works flawlessly with no issues at all. It is possible further tweaking the VFD settings would eliminate this error.

If you WERE planning to run it 8+ hours a day, I think the VFD should be integrated more correctly/completely for best results, as mentioned above. All that said, using a small watchmaker's lathe, with it's very light weight spindle and collets, it probably wouldn't error if it had a similar set up to the Hardinge. The weight of the 5C collet head and chuck (when installed) is a different thing.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi Stian,

I wonder why nobody mentioned this, but if you want to run your motor from 230 V with fixed speed only, this is easy.
Now your motor is wired in star connection, for 230V you must 
1. change it to delta connection (in the connection box, with the metal bridges)
2. connect both 230V wires to 2 of the 3 terminals
3. connect a motor capacitor (5-10 µF, depends on motor power) from the  empty terminal to one of the two 230V terminals. To reverse motor direction, connect it to the other 230V terminal.

Frank

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 9/17/2018 at 10:02 AM, Tudor said:

I noticed you mention sending the power direct to the motor from the VFD, and I nearly did that myself on the Hardinge; however, that uses a dual-winding motor- so it has one set of windings for "low" speed and a second set for "high" speed. If I use the VFD direct, I cannot use that feature. (I understand I could wire it to "high" only and let the VFD control speed)

 

I agree you want to use the two motor windings for speed control, VFD's are not the best choice to vary speed on machine tools by orders of magnitude; I've not been faced with the challenge but would want to use both windings.  I've you stopped everything and threw a switch to change coils, Im not sure why it would matter but we use a lot of VFD's in the equipment we make and all I've read and been told, both professionally and for hobby size stuff says switching between motor and VFD can cause problems.   Mind you, no ones explained exactly what those problems are so I can't back up the claim.   Perhaps its more tolerant than I've been led to believe, or you've got a particularly robust unit that doesn't care. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yeah, it’s only an issue in high speed. I think the VFD is expecting feedback from the motor it is not getting. Updating the VFD would probably eliminate that problem. 

But I use high speed infrequently so it’s not an issue. Low speed seems to work fine. 

Snd again, if it was high volume production there should be a better way to do it, like a three phase transformer from the 480 we have to 220 it needs. Those are quite expensive however, and if you don’t have three phase at all, they do you no good. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

49 minutes ago, Tudor said:

Snd again, if it was high volume production there should be a better way to do it, like a three phase transformer from the 480 we have to 220 it needs. Those are quite expensive however, and if you don’t have three phase at all, they do you no good.  

 

The high and low motor coils take different voltages???

I think with a VFD you want to change the voltage before the VFD, in the set up above you can see a transformer behind the VFD.  Motor and VFD are 440, transformer is 440 to 220 single phase run backwards so it delivers 440 to the VFD.   Its a single phase transformer, NOS, i picked up off kijiji for $30.  In the garage where the big machines are I have a rotary phase converter (240V 1P in, 10hp idler) and there I use a 3P transform after the converter to step it up to 600 (in Canada, industrial machines are usually 600V 3P).   That transformer was expensive, used $400...but its 15KVA irrc.  The RPC could care less about seeing it on the output.....but an RPC is a brute force approach to creating 3P vs the finesse of a VFD.....but a heck of a lot cheaper for the large HP machines, you only need one and works like a charm.

Edited by measuretwice

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

No, both coils are 220/3 phase. 

Its an old school way of doing a two speed motor, before the VFD was invented. 

Still used today by Torit for dust collectors. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×