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Fluctuating watch


margolisd

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Hi everyone. I'm a newbie repairer so be gentle. I've got a problem I've come across with an old scrap watch I'm repairing for practice. I cleaned it, oiled it and repaired a minor distortion in the hair spring. I find that when I try to regulate it the timer machine shows the timing fluctuating. Without moving It will be 20 seconds fast then a minute later 10 seconds slow and then fast again. I've demagnetised it and also made sure the hair spring is clean. I just wanted to know if this problem is common and what the most likely causes are. My only theory is that something is up with the main spring and it's releasing energy inconsistently. Is this a possibility? Thanks all.

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Hello margolisd,

On this friendly forum before making a post for help or advice. We like new members to introduce themselves. Just say a little about what you do and about yourself.

We like that to go into the Introducing Yourself Here. This is the link.

https://www.watchrepairtalk.com/forum/23-introduce-yourself-here/

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it be helpful to have some of the basics like what kind of watch is this and what was the condition in before you serviced it? then the timing machine results can we get pictures especially pictures in the various states of not keeping time? than these timing fluctuations are they consistent or are they random?

 

 

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Thanks all. It's an Election Grand Prix circa 1945. It was in very bad condition. I replaced a cracked end stone on the balance. The balance cock was wonky and I rectified it by making a tiny correctional piece. And the balance wheel had a broken pivot which I've replaced. The end / side shake feels okay and the wheel spins nicely and evenly. I corrected a bend in the hair spring close to the collet. The hair spring is still a tad distorted but it's the best I can get it. All the pallet stones seem fine. Amplitude is around 220. It's nicely in beat. I'll try and get some pictures from my timing app. I use Timegrapher which usually works really well for me. The graph essentially looks hilly and random.

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Old mainsprings don't always deliver consistent power and can fluctuate. For the sake of a tenner I would tend to change it, especially in a watch of this age, as you don't know how long ago it was changed, if at all. I would also get the hairspring straighter, as this also is going to affect the consistency. 

 

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You never know, once you replace the mainspring and get the hairspring in good shape the problem might be remedied. To try and find the cause of fluctuating timing readings whilst there is one, maybe two existing problems is going to be pretty hard. Maybe deal with those first, otherwise, there is little method to the problem-solving. 

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On 9/11/2018 at 3:47 AM, margolisd said:

I'm a newbie repairer so be gentle

 

8 hours ago, margolisd said:

Thanks all. It's an Election Grand Prix circa 1945. It was in very bad condition. I replaced a cracked end stone on the balance. The balance cock was wonky and I rectified it by making a tiny correctional piece. And the balance wheel had a broken pivot which I've replaced. The end / side shake feels okay and the wheel spins nicely and evenly. I corrected a bend in the hair spring close to the collet. The hair spring is still a tad distorted but it's the best I can get it. All the pallet stones seem fine

I have a link below because I'm still curious about which watch you working on? typically with a watch there can be a name on the dial sometimes that has nothing to do with who made the watch. Then on the movement itself a lot of times that might even have a name and even a number but that's not necessarily who made the movement. A lot of this depends on the company. I have a website link below I like the descriptions they have for the various movements so it looks like your watch was made by "Election" which you can find in the list on the website but I don't have the actual model number? The reason why I'm asking is the quality of your watch affects this discussion and casually looking at one of their movements it's 15 jewels and it just looks cheap. So it be nice to know which model you are working on or in the absence of photograph of the movement and the number of jewels.

Then you'll notice that I quoted you twice because we have a conflict? So the first quote is that you're a newbie and you've come to us for help which is outstanding. But we've seen newbies before and the second quote doesn't fit perhaps?

so the second quote is here for a couple reasons first you've done a lot of repairers we really need to look at all of the as they can all have affects on what's going on second you made a lot of repairs that aren't usually newbie repairs. Balance wheel end stone but shoot claim deed check the end shake so that's probably okay. The wonky balance wheel isn't quite a technical term but we can go with that I'm just curious as to the correction piece can we get a picture to see what has happened here? Then the one I get most curious about is the balance wheel broken pivot that you replaced? replacing a balance pivots is a very skilled task definitely not a new be task. For instance in this group most people if they attempt to replace the staff will purchase an entire new staff. There's a few people that can make a staff and very very few people that replace the pivot. Although I've heard of a watchmaker was really good at that and could actually replace a pivot faster than somebody could replace the staff so it is a valid repair but it be nice to see pictures. then they hairspring a nice picture so we can see how it looks and don't worry if you're struggling with hairsprings we all are. Hairsprings are an ongoing learning process no one's really perfect that those at least not without lots and lots of practice.

then timing fluctuations magnetism will cause some of them but long-term fluctuations like you're describing are usually power issues through the gear train starting with the mainspring. then if the pattern is repeating you can sometimes figure out where the problem is from that as opposed to what appears to be a random fluctuation.

then a picture of the old mainspring would be nice. Power fluctuations start with the mainspring and if it isn't right it's definitely an issue. You can reuse an old mainspring but the chance of undesirable things happening increases rapidly depending upon its condition. Every single undesirable band kink rusty spots all of that causes the mainspring not to slip nicely that causes power fluctuations. If the mainspring is set you won't have the running time that you should. Ideally you would want to replace the spring especially if you're having problems.

then for diagnosing we still need the timing machine results preferably several of them showing the various problems we might see something you're not seeing. Then a lot of repairs were made they can all introduce problem so we really need to look at every single one of those. The mainspring could definitely be the source your problem. Or basically a lot of things are going on all at the same time we need to break things down and look at things one at a time.

http://www.ranfft.de/cgi-bin/bidfun-db.cgi?10&ranfft&0&2uswk

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Thank you for sending such a detailed reply and showing so much interest! It's an Election 645 movement. http://www.ranfft.de/cgi-bin/bidfun-db.cgi?10&ranfft&&2uswk&Election_645

I am a newbie. I started in June this year. I did indeed replace the entire wheel from eBay :) My terminology wasn't clear.

I have a new mainspring on the way! Interestingly, not only was it rather kinked, but I think it was the wrong size. I found it in the GR book listed by calibre and some of the dimensions were different to the old main spring I'm replacing. The length was 20cm too short. And it should have been .1mm wider. I'm not sure how much of a difference, if any, this could make.

The cracked end stone was a replacement as well. I simply found a similar clamp with a stone in it and it seems to fit nicely. Although I'd really like to get a jeweling tool and learn to replace / correct the stone itself as this could be extremely useful.

As for the wonky balance cock... It seemed to be angling down a hair's breadth and preventing the wheel from turning freely. I noticed a group of graver marks on the underside of the cock, presumably put there by another repairer to correct this. I filed these away since I don't like this method. I fashioned my correctional piece from several halved foils. It took quite a bit of trial and error but it works well. Picture attached.

As for the hairspring, it's difficult to photograph but I'm going to see if I can improve it this weekend and also fit the new mainspring. And I'll report back with some pictures of the timing machine result as well.

I think I've spent more time on hairsprings than anything else since starting to learn. I've got quite good with bends. It's the twists that are nightmarish. Arg!

 

 

IMG_0869.jpg

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thank you for the reply clarifies things considerably and it makes it a lot easier to understand what was going on.

then the description of the mainspring yes if it's kinked and bent and other bad things definitely uneven power. then for the size the width being off by .1 isn't that bad it's the other dimensions that tend to be a problem.depending upon how extreme you go the thickness affects how much power you have. It's too thinly you might not run the watch on the other hand if it's too thick too much power. The length affects the running time it's too short you don't have enough running time on the other hand of it's too long it fills the barrel and you don't get running time either. Thoughts you tend to have to go quite a bit a difference before it's an issue lot of it depends on the watch. then the website that has your movement description and picture lists the mainspring as 8.0 x 0.09 x 250mm  how does that compare with the book size?

The balance bridge issue yes I agree I hate when people put the marks on the bottom to change the end shake which is what they're doing. Often times people use very thin pieces of paper you give the same effect as a thin piece of foil. Unless of course it's a Russian watch and sometimes they put in much thicker pieces of metal to make up for manufacturing issues.

so now we get to wait for the new mainspring that should improve things considerably.

then for hairspring work it also helps to find scrap watches that you have no intent on fixing but they give you balance wheels to play with. this way you can do a deliberate bend that you really don't want to do on a good watch and then practice fixing that. The only way anyone gets good is to practice and the more practice you do the better so finding balance wheels to practice on is a very helpful thing to do.

 

 

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Yes, I have loads of scrap watches I'm slowly working through. And oddly enough I came across today a tiny USSR made Sekonda. And what should I find under the balance cock? Two quite thick metal pieces. They're actually nicely made and it's a really cool little movement. I think I'm going to try and get it working.

1.80 x 8.0 x 0.09 x 250mm on Rannft sounds wrong in terms of length. This would be too short for a 9.5 barrel, no? The GR suggest 360 for this movement.

Thanks for the explanation on main springs. I'll let you know what happens :)

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