I've ran out of ideas & tricks ...... Help !!

[clockboy]

I have been thinking about this and I think you have two issues. I think the first fault showing as a wavy pattern is caused by inconsistent power coming through to the escape. The second fault is there is something wrong on one side of the escape. See the attachment, although a different machine the same readings analysis applies.

 

Timing-Machine-Charts-.pdf

[Endeavor]

Cleaned, installed and oiled the original components and checked the escape / pallets action with the tissue paper. That worked fantastic !

I powered the m/spring just a few clicks, just enough for the fork to draw in, locking itself against the banking pins. Of course, with the tissue paper underneath, (in my case) the friction was too high to observe the draw, so I first checked the inside- and outside drop; the size of the gaps seemed consistent and equal for the inside- as well as the outside-drop, for each and every escape wheel teeth. Also, the unlock and subsequent drop takes place with the pallet fork (very) close to the banking pin. The distance between the fork and banking pins, when the unlock takes place, seems on either side to be the same. Removed the tissue paper and checked the draw; also here no issues. The entry- and exit-pallet shown the same and consistent amount of draw for each and every escapement wheel teeth. Once unlocked, the movement of the fork was crisp and swift towards to opposite banking pin.

With the same low power on the main-spring (just a few clicks), dropped the balance in and it started oscillating straight away. Winding up the m/spring to full power, still yields only a mediocre amplitude and a poor timekeeping;

Dail up;

Dial down;

Crown up (hard to get decent readings with the W-O-S):

Crown Down;

Having had the escape wheel, pallet fork and pallet bridge changed out with parts of the second movement, with no significant improvement, I guess the balance-assembly self starts to look suspicious, even though it seems to oscillate freely when mounted on its own.

As Clockboy points out, train issues are also likely still in the mix of trouble. Even though I couldn't find anything wrong with any of the gears and it runs with the slightest touch, it may well be that the train under torque has issues (?).

Whether there are issues with a pallet or escape-teeth?? So far I can't find anything wrong with the escape wheel (teeth) nor the pallet-fork nor the jewels. Also, the escape/pallets tissue paper check didn't reveal any abnormalities.

I demagnetized the whole movement several times, in the hope to exclude magnetism.

The movement is currently running and tomorrow morning I'll see if it still does or whether it has had a mislock .....

Any new ideas or remarks what to do next are very welcome !!

Now, I need to get my neck checked ..... priority according to @Nucejoe

 

Edited September 9, 2018 by Endeavor

[Nucejoe]

This thread is too lenghtly to keep track of all siad/ done.

How freely is freely? 

Have you checked the staffs axial play, are you sure the cab stones not pushing on staff pivots dispite face up and down data, I would loosen the two little screws of stone cab, if no impovement, I would put a drop of lighter fluid on upper and lower balance jewels while running.  

Are you sure of the roller? 

Bent pivots? Flattened pivot tip?

Regard

[Endeavor]

@Nucejoe Indeed, the thread is getting lengthy ...... but what to do about it if the problem doesn't seem to be an easy fix?

Yes, all valid questions you posted; how freely is freely? Descriptions open for individual / personal interpretations* ..... are there actually any fixed definitions, or benchmarks to check a balance against ..... and which can be performed without very specialized equipment (like the tissue paper trick)? To me, after having given the balance a good swing and it oscillates wildly, when it is slowly, nicely and "linear" dies down over a period of a minute or so, that seems to me that the balance is oscillating freely.

As I remarked above, having now checked as good as I could the escape mechanism, I now have to zoom in on the balance and see if I can answer your questions, applying your suggestions.

So far, without load, just like with the wheel train, all seems to move, rotate & swing "fine"*, but as soon as torque is applied, and the movement goes into action, something happens. Whether there is still some old oil residue in the jewels or on the pivots, despite all my extensive pegging efforts?

If you have professionally anything to do with watch repair; the following may throw your arms in the air from despair;

Here a print, took just now of the 503 movement DU, with the Watch-o-Scope; a DIY timegrapher.

Ignoring the daily rate, it shows a 207 degrees amplitude.

Here the picture of the laptop LCD of the above signal, picked up by the piezo-element and amplified;

In the above case I put the dotted horizontal line above the 1st signal.

Here what happens if I include the first signal;

Again, not taking the daily rate into account, the amplitude is (significantly) lower. Here picture of the LCD showing the dotted horizontal line including the 1st signal;

It takes time to position the movement against the piezo element such that an "usable" signal is obtained. Here a shot of the LCD, same 503 movement, also Dial-UP in a different position => an unusable signal, more like  "take you pick".

What I'm tying to say is that I'm a well willing amateur, doing my best with the equipment I have within a budget I have to stick to.

Therefor my observations, judgements and the description thereof, are my personal best interpretations of what I see, based upon my current watch knowledge & the information I get from the equipment I have. All this may be subjective, open for interpretation or completely wrong. I'm sorry for that.

All I can do is my best. I'm keen to learn and any constructive and educational help is greatly appreciated !

My current plan forward:

-thoroughly clean the 2nd 503 movement, assembly and see how it runs. If "fine"*, I have a balance to swap out ......

- meanwhile observe the first 503 movement.

 

Edited September 10, 2018 by Endeavor

[Nucejoe]

Hi there. 

A drop of lighter fluid on both lower and upper jewels while the movement is runing and stone cab are loose, is enexpensive, no risk easy to do and the result is immediately observable and chances are good you will be surprised to see the wheel fly to full amplitude  right in front of your eyes.  

Facts are the pivots spent a long time in oily jewels, so depending on the oil a bunch of chemical changes could have occured which we may only see under microscope. A drop of lighter fluid momentarily and to umbelievable extend eases such possibilities.

Regards 

 

 

 

[rodabod]

A couple of other things to check:

The mainspring barrel side-shake: is the barrel rubbing anything when it is wound up? Sometimes they can start to bind as you wind them up further due to increased side-thrust. 

Secondly, have you removed the balance and pallets (with the mainspring run down first!) and checked how freely the train runs? And while you are there, push each wheel to inspect the shakes. 

[Endeavor]

@Nucejoe; Thanks

I tried your trick. When the dial is up, the balance bridge is on the bottom. I slacked off the little plate, holding the cap-stone on the main-plate (dial side).

Initially I inserted, with the aid of my tweezers closed (capillary effect) two droplets on either side of the balance, on the main-plate and bridge. A bit too much fluid as it stopped the balance, but one it started to evaporate, the balance started moving again. I tried another method, which yielded the same results. I took the balance assembly off, inserted a droplet on the main-plated jewel and the bridge jewel and assembled things swiftly (I'm getting fast after having it done dozens of times now).

The amplitude did increase from about 130 to 160 degrees (max I've seen) and the daily rate was more constant "up" . Can we draw any conclusions from this or did you hope to see an amplitude of well over the 200?

 

Edited September 10, 2018 by Endeavor

[clockboy]

Interesting that the inconsistent power goes and the watch gains when the cap l jewel is loosened. I am therefore presuming the balance is too tight. Either the balance is a tad too long or there is a fault with the end of the balance or an issue with the cap jewel. Also there is still something wrong with one side of the escape. Was there by any chance a shim under the balance bridge when you first stripped the movement. Is there any end shake with the balance. If too tight the result will be low amplitude. Getting the watch in beat will also improve amplitude. 

[Nucejoe]

Hi there     

Not good enough,  I expected amplitute f!ying to your surprise.

Please note, drop the fluid as the watch is runing. Yet not too  much fluid to get to H/S, if it did get to the H/S don,t wait for it to evaporate rather blow the fluid out of H/S . The idea is to have fluid surrounding pivots while watch is running, The route you took renders the pivots dry  as fluid is evaporated by the time you got the balance installed back on. 

We are talking near perfect amplitute or should consider some chance for multiple fault. I meant to eliminate excessive  friction on pivots.

Regards

[Endeavor]

@rodabod; I just checked the side-shake of the m/spring barrel and that seems to me normal*, nothing excessive and the amount of play it would need to function. There are no "wear"-marks on m/plate nor the bridge. (*As Nucejoe pointed rightly out, what is normal, what is freely etc, etc. Those are personal interpretations based upon experience, knowledge etc, but if possible I will try to specify).

All the wheels show some axial play between the jewels, but next to none radial play. I can't see that any of the wheels would (start to) jam when torque is applied.

Does the train run freely? As for my count, the ratchet wheel has 45 teeth. One click and the escape wheel either takes off, or at least makes preparations to do so. If it is the latter, on the way adding the second click, the escape wheel takes off and includes the energy of the first click. I tried that for many clicks and there seems to be no "sticky" point in the train whereby I manage to do two clicks without the escape wheel taking off ....... personally, I would call that the train runs freely (?).

@clockboy; I do agree and understand your reasoning. Yes, the end-cap was loosened, but the lubrication viscosity was changed as well. Yes, there seems to be a problem on one side of the pallet/escape, but so far I haven't had the luck finding it or finding out why? The balance still has some end-shake, whether it is enough I'm not 100% sure. Slackening the screw of the cap-stone on the m/plate doesn't seem to make much difference, if at all .......

No, there was no shim underneath the balance bridge and I'm nearly 100% sure that I was the first one working on this movement.

Getting the balance in beat?; I've checked multiple times, but with the balance at rest, the impulse pin is exactly, bang on in the middle of the banking pins. Why I get this beat error is a mystery to me ........ next to all the other mysteries .....

@Nucejoe My first attempt was as you described, however I waited for the excess fluid to evaporate. I'll try again later today ...... For now, I need a brake as I'm slowly cracking up .......

Thanks all for your help, highly appreciated

Edited September 10, 2018 by Endeavor

[Endeavor]

As I wrote in this lengthy novel; Next to everything there is to peg, I pegged the tiny balance staff jewels, but I didn't clean / pegged the ultra thin balance staff pivots .... I didn't have the courage to. Now, as last resort, I may have to undertake this adventure ..... any tips or better not to touch?

Edited September 10, 2018 by Endeavor

[Nucejoe]

Oh endeaver, I hoped to get couple hundered degrees extra amplitute to save some for the next wtach. ha ha

In case of no considerable amplitute gain. The next step I suggest would be to take revenge on all the other screws instead. Why not.

Loosen all screws a bit, this would release any possible residual pretention, if you saw astonishing amplitute gain, tighten back one screw at time to identify the culprit. If no good at all, I think I snould fix me a cup of tea and check back.

[Nucejoe]

To clean the pivots, I would cut the tip off of a tooth pic, with a nail clipper. Soak the pivot in lighter fluid and stick the pivot into tooth pic  ,rotate the tooth pic and repeat. You wont  break anything as long as a genuine bamboo tooth pic and you rotate the tooth pic not the balance.

Next is to  check the ligne 

Regards.

[Endeavor]

My toothpicks aren't bamboo, be letting them soak for a while may soften the wood. Of course, I'll try the lighter fluid & screw tricks first, but these balance pivots start to worry me ...... could it be them ?? I've to open the cap stones for oiling anyway, since we pored lighter fluid in/over the jewels.

You wrote; Next is to check the "ligne" ....... ? What do you mean with that?

[Nucejoe]

Ligne is the diameter of the pivot  on scale of, one thousands of cm , ( 1/1000) cm. That is where the pivot rotates inside the jewel hole.

Visit the site balancestaffs.com to see the data provided for nearly all staffs. Click more info on any pivot to see the diagram and corrsponding sizes.

A fifty year old watch has dried oil in jewels hole that may not come out easily.  The fluid when movement runs lets the pivot ifself clean up its needed diameter, since the pivot gets in the hole easier than any tool we use.

For now residual pretention is on top of the agenda, if indeed you got cosiderable amplitute with fluid jewel runing movement.

Regards

[Nucejoe]

Rationally you would want to fix the fault before you go for final cleaning and final reassembly. 

I think you are overworried about breaking pivots, pegwood would do as well. Stick the pivot into pegwood couple of times With and also  without lighter fluid.

Regards

[Nucejoe]

13 minutes ago, Nucejoe said:

Ligne is the diameter of the pivot  on scale of, one thousands of cm , ( 1/1000) cm. That is where the pivot rotates inside the jewel hole.

Visit the site balancestaffs.com to see the data provided for nearly all staffs. Click more info on any pivot to see the diagram and corrsponding sizes.

A fifty year old watch has dried oil in jewels hole that may not come out easily.  The fluid when movement runs lets the pivot ifself clean up its needed diameter, since the pivot gets in the hole easier than any tool we use.

For now residual pretention is on top of the agenda, if indeed you got cosiderable amplitute with fluid jewel runing movement.

Regards

Correction , if indeed you did "not" get considerable amplitute gain .??..

[Endeavor]

I tried the "slacken off screws" of the train bridge and main barrel bridge, but no gain. Then I tried the lighter-fluid on the running movement. I applied too much, blow it off and put it on the timegrapher: it didn't take off in amplitude, but it did in daily rate. Then I realized that I didn't loosen the cap-stones, so I repeated to process. Again I applied too much fluid and blow it off, however this time the amplitude was very low and the movement had a hard time to keep running. I took the balance out, cleaned the surfaces and re-installed the balance; but still nearly "no-go". When tightening the cap stones I could see that the balance stopped moving. I guess something must have gotten in the jewel(s), so I took that as a sign that it was time to take things apart. Currently I'm cleaning / pegging the easy balance staff pivot on the hairspring side, with the roller through a hole in a steal plate. Trickier is going to be the roller side ...... I have to think of some kind of support with Rodeco, or something. Free handed seem to tricky for me. Experience has learned me that I can trust only one hand being fully steady, the other may start to do tricks on me when it comes to the real delicate stuff ...... I'm talking purely watches here

Edited September 10, 2018 by Endeavor

[Nucejoe]

Pic of the balance jewels please upper and lower, that is wth cabs off. 

[Nucejoe]

38 minutes ago, Nucejoe said:

Pic of the balance jewels please upper and lower, that is wth cabs off. 

How dose it act with both cabs off in various positions?

[Nucejoe]

17 hours ago, Nucejoe said:

Pic of the balance jewels please upper and lower, that is wth cabs off. 

How dose it act with both cabs off in various positions? That provides the balance more space,  In case the fork is hitting anything such as the roller or the bottom plate, changing the position of the wheel axially may just change wheels behaviour for you to see.

[Endeavor]

@Nucejoe Thanks again for your willingness to "hang in", suggestions and help.

I pegged the balance staff pivots, an endeavor I've never dared to do before. All went well and the pivots look smooth and shiny. I even pegged the tiny balance staff jewels again with my "Screw-peg"® ( https://www.watchrepairtalk.com/topic/9726-the-screw-peg-®/). Pegged again the pallet fork jewels, cleaned and oiled the respective components and assembled all parts in full anticipation. As usual, the balance started oscillating straight away. Increased to tension on the m/spring an here are the latest graphs;

Dial up:

Dial Down;

Crown up:

Crown down;

The beat error has in general slightly improved, the amplitude stayed the same, apart for the odd Crown UP reading.

Getting close to admit defeat on this one, I think I'll first proceed with the second identical movement in the hope to have a better outcome. If that runs fine, I can start comparing or perhaps swap parts in the hope to find the cause, or causes. Also try some of the latest suggestion of Nucejoe or other suggestions if they come in .......

For now, I'll give this movement, and myself, a rest ........

Regardless whether I'll get this movement ever to work, so far it has already been, educational- & skill-wise, a huge leap forward. I've done things (as it happens on such a small movement; how lucky can you be? ) I haven't done before and I've learned things I never knew before, all thanks to the input of you guys. Thank you very much indeed for all your efforts and help !!

One day I hope to break the news with a cause and a happy ending !!

 

 

 

 

[Nucejoe]

Hi,

Good idea, working on the second movement, introduces laco 503 more or should I says it's designers.

Thanks to your perseverance, some mysteries may get uncovered.

I personally wouldn,t touch a laco 503 with a ten foot pole.

Regards

 

[mikepilk]

I've been following this with interest, as I have an Omega cal 613 with  similar problems - everything looks good and runs freely when tested alone, but when assembled  the amplitude won't go above 190 deg . 

 

 

[JohnR725]

7 minutes ago, mikepilk said:

I've been following this with interest, as I have an Omega cal 613 with  similar problems - everything looks good and runs freely when tested alone, but when assembled  the amplitude won't go above 190 deg

it would really be best if you started a new question with your watch problem. While problems may seem to be similar it really works best in the discussion if we discuss each watch separately. Because each watch is a separate watch with separate problems conditions etc.