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New Girard 03B balance staff...hairspring collet too loose!


noirrac1j

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Hello,

 

I have a Girard Perregaux watch caliber 03b (I serviced myself) and was unfortunately wearing when it dropped onto a ceramic tiled floor--Goodbye balance shaft pivot! I got a replacement balance shaft from Cousins UK, pulled out my staking set, and all went well until I tried to fit the hairspring back on. The collet was too loose. I tried tightening it with a pair of steel tweezers a managed to get it a bit tighter but it  was still too loose to run properly. When I compared the old broken balance shaft to the replacement Ronda 3926, I could see that the old balance staff has a slightly thicker arbor for the collet, and yet the replacement is Ronda 3926 everywhere I look.  The collet on the hairspring is way too big to fit on these new balance shafts--what to do?

 

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1480330429_ScreenShot2018-09-04at12_33_47PM.png.76118b88712f2e3ecd02351c9f8419f3.png 

 

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You really need the Bergeon collet closing tool, it's super easy to slip and kill the spring without it. If you have a lathe or a good pinvice you can also close it with those, hold the collet on a smoothing broach to get it in the lathe or pinvice, tighten up then slip the broach out.

I hate that the replacement staffs are so often incorrect in some way. Luckily most of the watches I get that need them have no replacements available so I make them, and they fit.

collet closer.jpg

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Just now, nickelsilver said:

You really need the Bergeon collet closing tool, it's super easy to slip and kill the spring without it. If you have a lathe or a good pinvice you can also close it with those, hold the collet on a smoothing broach to get it in the lathe or pinvice, tighten up then slip the broach out.

I hate that the replacement staffs are so often incorrect in some way. Luckily most of the watches I get that need them have no replacements available so I make them, and they fit.

collet closer.jpg

Hey thanks for the reply--I wish they made a cheaper version of  this tool. I've also tried using a concave punch with just a light tap of a hammer, but it didn't seem to work.

J

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for future reference when changing balance staffs always measure the old staff and the new staff. This way can verify that they're the same without a surprise coming up later on. Then if you have any kind of technical reference material it's nice to verify that both staffs match whatever is supposed to be in the watch. This comes up typically on American pocket watches where there is one staff number originally and variations. It also comes up with a replacement staff generic versus the original. usually the replacements are physically bigger which allows you if you have a  lathe to reduce the size to fit the original.

then the collet closing tool seemingly expensive for the amount of use you're going to get, but well worth it when you need to use it.

I have a link to an interesting site if you click on the more information related to the staff you have you'll get a size whether or not it's the correct size don't know but at least it gives you a starting point you can compare and it's nice reference for the future.

http://www.balancestaffs.com/girard-perregaux.php

then it's really handy material houses are putting their reference material online for helping to find out what parts you may or may not need. Unfortunately the reference material is helpful a lot of times the parts of been discontinued but still feel the figure out which you need or don't need very helpful

so the first mystery is which watches this? Basically as we run down the page all I'm finding is GP03 there does not appear to be a 03B so I'm curious if that is actually marked on the watch?

So 03 comes up with the link below helpful we get a base caliber also. The base caliber is a AS1130. But things get out of control after that there are two different balance completes. Looks like five different staffs with variations for collet size. This is where having the wrong collet size staff the collet closing tool isn't going to be of a close it to fit that.

also helpful on the website is clicking on the part will take you to a cross reference list and show you everything that cross references to your part.

http://cgi.julesborel.com/cgi-bin/matcgi2?ref=GP_03

then this site is nice for identifying watches it's bringing up the continuation of my mystery of which watch do you actually have as the only show the 03? If they knew about variations the variations would be listed they're not listed. Then if we go to the base caliber as1130 we unfortunately find there are lots of variations and a reference to a collet size problem.

staff.http://www.ranfft.de/cgi-bin/bidfun-db.cgi?10&ranfft&0&2uswk&Girard-Perregaux_03

http://www.ranfft.de/cgi-bin/bidfun-db.cgi?10&ranfft&0&2uswk&AS_1130

then one more source bestfit online which unfortunately is subscription based but well worth the subscription if you're looking for parts. sometimes you find with variations different sites have different cross references. So looks like three different balance wheels and several different balance staffs. Plus a new number gp03.09 which I didn't see anywhere else.

 

GP 03 100/737B STAFF/AS 1155 BESTFIT BALANCE STAFF
GP 03 100/76A   BESTFIT BALANCE STAFF
GP 03 721/604   BAL. COMP.
GP 03 721/605 721/AS 1130 BALANCE COMPLETE INCA
GP 03.09 721/E    
GP 03 723/306   GENUINE BALANCE STAFF
GP 03 723/307   GENUINE BALANCE STAFF
GP 03.09 723/E    

 

 

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Hello @JohnR725. Thanks for the comprehensive post. I looked at balancestaffs.com and that's the one that lists the part as being Ronda 3926....that is the same part that is available from Cousins UK: This is the one that is too small for the collet. The watch I have is a GP 03B, but I also have a GP 03, and also happen to have an AS 1130, which I know is the base caliber for the GP 03, )3B, and 03E

I have an account with Borel and I've seen their part numbering system, but I don't see anything that looks like the part number for Ranfft. That Bestfit reference is the only one I have not see before. What I did was order a balance staff for an AS 1130 non-inca to try it out. The price was only 6.00 so it's not too much of a loss if it doesn't fit, plus I will measure it and start building a reference for myself. Its a real headache to have so many possibilities: two collet sizes, different caliber variations, and with and without Inca shock. That Bergeon tool is too expensive and I'm better off just trying different balance staffs. Thanks for the feedback!

J

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On 9/5/2018 at 3:27 PM, noirrac1j said:

Could I use something like these?

1750258624_ScreenShot2018-09-05at10_25_33AM.png.12c34135112047115528b9bd2ca64147.png

 

 

Could certainly try. The only thing is that you may have limited purchase on the collet itself and you don't want to touch the hairspring. You could need to be very gradual in your adjustment, or use an eyeless to closely observe.

Another suggestion if it has an adjustable stud for beat error adjustment, and if it just barely grips the staff, is to use a tiny droplet of weak threadlock, or a simple adhesive like lume binder. That should sufficiently lock it in place and also be removable.

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Got the new balance staff last night and had a little time to replace it this afternoon/evening.  The one I tried previously from cousins (Ronda and Balancestaffs.com both list 3926 as the replacement) must have been smaller, this one I ordered for the AS1130 is the correct against the old one. I followed the video @Markmade on replacing the balance staff and roller using domed and flat punches and all went well. When I replaced the hairspring the collet it went on using a flat punch and hand pressure--it held firm. The watch is running OK so far, but it seems to be "galloping" when dial side up. The end shake seemed OK and the balance wasn't poised and I did not do dynamic poising either. I don't have experience with truing calipers, but this is as good a time as any to get some experience with it. Any input on correcting?

J

Slide1.jpg.d7544fee27ef1226e2b710f61b18ea9e.jpg

 

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nice pictures

So the classic galloping sound also known as Rebanking is caused by too much amplitude. typically when you change a balance staff if this occurs one of the pivots is not correctly shaped. Normally we spend a lot of time getting rid of friction in a watch only to find we actually need friction in some places like the end of the balance pivots. the end of the balance pivot is supposed to be just slightly rounded if it gets to round it has no friction or limited and you have too much amplitude.

As for dynamic poising you don't do that unless you statically poise first. I'm not saying you can't have a positional error on a modern balance wheel but modern screwless balance wheel there is not a lot of things bad that can happen to the screw up the poise. Providing you put the roller back where you found it so the roller jewel is in the correct position there shouldn't be any positional errors. There probably will be depends upon the quality of this balance wheel and how far the factory took the first place.

then as the balance wheel is in the watch are you seeing any wobbling which indicates you might want to true the balance wheel?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rcqrb3_vin8

 

 

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Thanks for your answer. I looked at the video, and it was a good resource. I made sure the hairspring was completely flat and inspected the movement closely and the balance wheel is definitely wobbly. The balance shaft I installed must be off center, and I think that is the cause of the balance wheel rubbing somewhere because the sound isn't quite a gallop, but more like a knocking/rubbing sound. I'm guessing I will need a pair of truing calipers or replace the balance shaft to correct.... I've not used a caliper yet but have my eyes on a couple on the bay. I need to find a video that shows how to do it.

:unsure:

J

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6 hours ago, nickelsilver said:

How did you remove the old staff? If it was simply punched out then it's likely that the balance was slightly distorted

I was looking at Mark's videos to see which one covered restaffing. There's a lot of ideas on how to remove staffs like having a lathe to either weaken the rivet or cut off the backside remove the hub. Then there are special tools like the one in the image attached out of Mark's video. in the video he specifies that the tool is used to prevent "buckling the wheel or damaging the hole". They also make special tools that will go it is normal staking set that will do the same thing.

if you read the fine print for the k&d tool a comment made about that the rivet breaks off. Then they even make balance staff specifically designed that they will break off. Occasionally the rivet doesn't break off that is where you really should use a lathe.  your image above I extracted out the balance staffs and magnified it looks like may be part of the rivet is broken like it's supposed to but also looks like part of it is still sticking out like it's still there?

 

bal-sta-t.JPG

k&D staff remove.JPG

staff-prob.JPG

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