Rolex-Alike

[dadistic]

Fakes don't bother me at all,  but again, I don't care much about brands so I wouldn't normally buy one. 

When trademarks stopped identifying the source of a good or service, and became a "brand", which is  purely a marketing tool, the whole concept lost its legitimacy to me.  Psychological tricks to attach meaning where there is and was none, with secondary scammers  along for the ride. 

To me, the only thing that counts is the "thing" itself, the name on the thing is only worth about as much as the ink it took to print it.

[jdm]

Fakes don't bother me at all,  but again, I don't care much about brands so I wouldn't normally buy one. 

When trademarks stopped identifying the source of a good or service, and became a "brand", which is  purely a marketing tool, the whole concept lost its legitimacy to me.  Psychological tricks to attach meaning where there is and was none, with secondary scammers  along for the ride. 

To me, the only thing that counts is the "thing" itself, the name on the thing is only worth about as much as the ink it took to print it.

Sorry I'm not sure what do you mean with all that. Leaving aside the marketing brands (invicta, certina, D&G an a million more) which have no meaning and no value, when it comes to a real 'thing' watch be it a Rolex or an humble Seiko, I despise counterfeing mainly because it exploits the desire of looking rich.

Then if you are saying that you don't care about big brands this is not the right thread - it's about fakes.

[dadistic]

All brands are marketing. Not just the stuff you're referring too, they just do it poorly. There are very,very,few companies that use trademarks in the original sense. That is not how you make money. 

[jdm]

All brands are marketing. Not just the stuff you're referring too, they just do it poorly. There are very,very,few companies that use trademarks in the original sense. That is not how you make money. 

Again, I've lost you. Marketing is not the subjects of this thread, counterfeiting is. Are you OK with it?

[dadistic]

There is no counterfeiting, let me try to put it simply.

ALL BRANDS ARE FAKES. 

Learn something about marketing and you will understand. 

a "counterfeited brand" is an oxymoron.

 

 

[jdm]

6 minutes ago, dadistic said:

There is no counterfeiting, let me try to put it simply.

ALL BRANDS ARE FAKES. 

Learn something about marketing and you will understand. 

a "counterfeited brand" is an oxymoron.

To each one his opinions and thank you for stating your loud and clear.

[Alastair]

I thought a Brand was a metal thing heated in a fire used to burn a logo into a cow's **BLEEP**!

[jdm]

I thought a Brand was a metal thing heated in a fire used to burn a logo into a cow's **BLEEP**![emoji3]

If you think that intelectual property can be disregarded, what about material one? One could as well embrace communism and leave doors unlocked for others to take stuff. Nice idea but we all know how it ends.

[Alastair]

Having had my intellectual property stolen in the past I'm well aware of the situation. I also never said that I agreed with it either!

Not a lot you can actually DO about it unless You want to stump up LOTS of dosh for schister lawyers and court-fees Been there, Thought about that, decided it wasnt worth the considerable money or ruining my life over!

Dunno what you found offensive in my humourous quip--designed to lighten the mood was, but whatever it was--I apologise!

 

[jdm]

3 minutes ago, Alastair said:

Having had my intellectual property stolen in the past I'm well aware of the situation. I also never said that I agreed with it either!

Not a lot you can actually DO about it unless You want to stump up LOTS of dosh for schister lawyers and court-fees Been there, Thought about that, decided it wasnt worth the considerable money or ruining my life over!

Dunno what you found offensive in my humourous quip--designed to lighten the mood was, but whatever it was--I apologise!

No need to apologize and i'm sorry to know that you have been a victim of theft in the past. I myself don't release anything of my work for free unless I know exactly to who it goes and I approve the specific cause.

[Ishima]

I'm sorry dadistic, but watchmaking would be dead without brands, without brands there would be no continuity, though I will say I understand how much manufacturers milk their brand and certainly a brand is no absolute guarantee of quality/consistancy. (indeed I don't think such a thing exists in any aspect of life) But you can't ignore that brands offer at a glance a great deal of information regarding the piece, with which depending on your knowledge you can make a potentially great deal of safe assumptions about it. 

When you have a 'Rolex' that was made cheaply, not by the people who spent years of hard work establishing the brand and its reputation you lessen the prestige they worked so hard to build, devalue their brand and make it harder for them to reap their profits. (indeed, knowing that 99/100 Rolex out there are tacky fakes worn by tacky people does impact my desire for one.)

And I would champion intellectual property value as well, A lot of people these days seem to have come to this conclusion that IP is just some abstract made up thing that we could all do without, true it has its problems, but suggesting it has no value it is a total leap from pragmatism to ideology that's too abstract to actually make sense in the world we live.. 



. 

 

Edited July 28, 2016 by Ishima

[svorkoetter]

I think the majority of those who do not think IP has value have never produced any, and thus have no idea of the effort that it takes to do so, whether it is writing a program, song, or book, or making a movie or video. They assume that physically intangible results require no work to produce.

[dadistic]

I have produced plenty. Music, software, electronic design, etc. I know how much effort it takes, but I am also very realistic about how much control there is over someone else's intellect.

But that is not branding. The idea that a brand can tell you anything, give any meaningful information about a product or service is dead and done, it's been corrupted for years. Most marketers understand that the typical person will use the name as a "shortcut" to the type of information that Ishima refers to above, and abuse that to no end. That's why brands (not products) are traded around in the modern economy like I used to trade baseball cards as a boy. 

And lumping everything from marketing to protecting the integrity of artistic works under the rubric of "intellectual property" does everyone a disservice, they are very,very different things and should be treated as such.

 

[jdm]

10 minutes ago, dadistic said:

And lumping everything from marketing to protecting the integrity of artistic works under the rubric of "intellectual property" does everyone a disservice, they are very,very different things and should be treated as such.

That's right, in most countries IP infringement and goods counterfeiting are two different crimes, although they are related. Your elaborated criticism of "branding" doesn't make a fake watch any more authentic. That if we want to follow by our laws and common sense, otherwise going by abstract principles one could affirm that property is a theft, money is an imaginary concept , etc, etc.

[dadistic]

Exactly :-)

The human world is driven by cultural illusions, confusing them with reality is a mistake. Pay attention to the watch, not the name. 

 "Ceci n'est pas une pipe." -    René Magritte

[jdm]

18 minutes ago, dadistic said:

Exactly :-)

The human world is driven by cultural illusions, confusing them with reality is a mistake. Pay attention to the watch, not the name. 

 "Ceci n'est pas une pipe." -    René Magritte

Which I pay attention to the watch not the brand, I wrote already few pages ago in this thread.
Just allow me to find pathetic those try to deceive, or improve their looks with counterfeited goods. They are the more confused of all us. And to be honest, I find your apology of a crime to sound false like a three dollar bill.

Edited July 29, 2016 by jdm

[svorkoetter]

1 minute ago, jdm said:

Just allow me to find pathetic those try to deceive, or improve their looks with counterfeited goods.

I think I can agree there.

26 minutes ago, jdm said:

...otherwise going by abstract principles one could affirm that property is a theft, money is an imaginary concept , etc, etc.

... ultimately, that a fake $20 bill is every bit as legitimate as a real one.

 

[bobm12]

Ok, guys, what's the point? No one is selling fakes here.

In a general sort of way, If anyone like the fake he or she owns, and wants to wear it, so be it! Wear it with pride I would agree since it turns you on! If you agree or don't agree with fakes, that's your problem, do or don't wear it.

I don't think anyone of us can actually promote or stop fakes so, what's the point? Yes, thieves and illusions, it is all part of our physical existence: don't worry, in the next life they might go away!

As for starting to get pushy against one another because we think different...that is not allowed. As a matter of fact, difference of opinions are a good think...what we think about other's and their opinions may be taken in the wrong way so please, phrase your points so it won't affect another member and please, give the respect we all deserve. To me, attack to others and others' ways are a big infringement and when you turn around, it gets back to your own ways too. It is just relative to who is attacking who. So, live and let live! If you need to fight, do it at home.

Life is too short, so try and enjoy it with a smile.

Thank you very much!

Cheers,

Bob

PS. Just a friendly "warning" from a friendly moderator...because I particularly care about good order, friends and friendly forums.

[jdm]

54 minutes ago, svorkoetter said:

I think I can agree there.

... ultimately, that a fake $20 bill is every bit as legitimate as a real one.

In the fantasy world of "all-money-is-fake", it is. But the jail one does when caught defrauding the next "brother", it that fake too?

 

 

[jdm]

38 minutes ago, bobm12 said:

To me, attack to others and others' ways are a big infringement and when you turn around, it gets back to your own ways too.

I'm pretty sure you're referring to me to have called a crime apology for what it is. I see that you come from great intentions, but if this forums wants to tolerate counterfeiting, or remove my postings against it, I'm old enough to live with that  

[bobm12]

No, jdm, not ONLY you, it is a general way of keeping things down and friendly for every one. In no way we tolerate or "untolerate" for that matter - if you allow this make up word -- counterfeiting. It is simply that we can't do anything about that, one way or another. Bigger organizations, with more means than we do have and are trying to...still no success. All I'm saying is: let us all watch the way we say things since in a friendly conversation we share points of view not attack them or indirectly other people that might not think the way we do....which by the way, our ways are not an absolute.

I hope this clarify my post and by the way, I won't get dragged into this topic which doesn't really interests me....and of course, don't condone either since it interests other people.

Cheers,

Bob

[Geo]

Very well said Bob.  I think this thread has run long enough now.