Jump to content

National Electric Watch Cleaning Machine


Recommended Posts

14 minutes ago, Noho said:

Using tap water instead of distilled water could potentially impact the effectiveness of the cleaning solution, or left some residue on the parts.

interesting if you read the sheet for your cleaning product that says that for the cleaning fluid you can mix it with  Tap water and de-ionised water are suitable. So the tap water is suitable the cleaning but for the rinse their very clear that you need to use rinsed with de-ionised water. they drop the option of either or for the rinse and only list one of those. The problem with tap water is you have no idea what's really in your water and how it into reacts with whatever you're trying to clean

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Noho said:

Thanks John for the feedback. Wouldnt be suprised that my issue is linked to water. Found a nice article regarding deionised vs distilled water. Looks like distilled is one step beyond so might try this.

 

https://www.chemicals.co.uk/blog/deionised-water-or-distilled-water

Yep. Deionized-no electricity. Distilled-no bugs and rocks. That's exactly how it was explained to me in trade school long ago and how I remember. I use distilled water even in my ultrasonic machine. Keeps it from becoming a "science project."

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Reverse osmosis (RO) water is another to consider. Distilled water is expensive and not eco friendly. It takes a lot of energy to convert water into steam then condense it back into water. Unless if you live in Iceland or Hawaii where there is plenty of geothermal energy.

I used to have a water distiller in my office to produce distilled water for my autoclave and ultrasonic cleaner. It would take almost a whole day to produce a gallon of distilled water. 

I switched to RO water about 20 years ago. The RO water filter can produce a gallon in minutes. RO water is almost as pure as distilled water, no bacteria, viruses, particulate matter, etc. Only very tiny amounts of minerals remain. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Using tap water depends on the quality of the water. In my area it is very high in chalk so calcium build up on household appliances is a constant battle. However I do use it with my ultra sonic (Clock parts and watch straps) as cleaning and drying the tank is easy.  But thoroughly cleaning a watch cleaner basket is a challenge.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 2 weeks later...

So, i received some distilled water today and cleaned a watch with it, and now the parts are all clean and shiny, no more whitish deposit. Im very happy with the result. These old Elma machines are really rock solid and do a pretty damn job, still after 50 years 🙂

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

NickP (and others who may be able to help) - How much did you pay for the National watch cleaning machine, if you don't mind me asking. Or does anyone have an idea what they should go for?

I currently have the same machine - It was my father's machine as he was a watch repairer around the 1970's. I intend to put it up for sale but i'm unsure for how much. It's not been used for over 40 odd years so I don't know it's condition and I don't feel confident trying to power it.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 2 months later...
  • 2 weeks later...
On 8/18/2018 at 6:51 AM, clockboy said:

The colour of the fluid looks wrong. The rinse is clear and the cleaner a very light brownish colour NOT green. Was there contamination in the cleaning jar. The only other issue I can think of is if the jars are not spinning at the correct speed. 

Today, I emptied my little jewelry ultrasonic which had the LR fine solution in it.  Yes it starts out light brown and ends up green or dark green.  The color change must be due to a chemical reaction between the cleaner and brass.  It is not due to a colloidal suspension.  We need a chemist on this board.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, LittleWatchShop said:

Today, I emptied my little jewelry ultrasonic which had the LR fine solution in it.  Yes it starts out light brown and ends up green or dark green.  The color change must be due to a chemical reaction between the cleaner and brass. 

You left out details? Either that or I'm lazy and don't want to go back several pages to get the details?

I noticed the cleaning solution when it starts out brand-new is very light brown. But if you keep it from long period of time it tends to get darker with age.

Then the green and blue how long did it take to get this pretty color?

I really try to forget this memory from school but yes the reason why your solution is blue-green that is copper leached out from the plates over time perhaps? The ammonia is a beautiful substance for making things bright and shiny it removes the tarnished but leave it too long it removes the copper. If you elevate the temperature the cleaning fluid Which is not recommended by the manufacturer usually speeds up doing its cleaning and etching.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

22 minutes ago, JohnR725 said:

You left out details? Either that or I'm lazy and don't want to go back several pages to get the details?

I noticed the cleaning solution when it starts out brand-new is very light brown. But if you keep it from long period of time it tends to get darker with age.

Then the green and blue how long did it take to get this pretty color?

I really try to forget this memory from school but yes the reason why your solution is blue-green that is copper leached out from the plates over time perhaps? The ammonia is a beautiful substance for making things bright and shiny it removes the tarnished but leave it too long it removes the copper. If you elevate the temperature the cleaning fluid Which is not recommended by the manufacturer usually speeds up doing its cleaning and etching.

 

Well...it is pretty simple.  I put fresh L&R in the ultrasonic.  Then I clean a bunch of brass tools (pin vises, etc.) and then the fluid is dark green.  So, I figure, at the atomic level, an new chemical structure is formed which now includes copper and zinc.  I noticed that after awhile, the cleaning ability of the solution deteriorates.  That makes sense as the solid solubility of the initial solution is saturated and can no longer incorporate (absorb, chemically combine...) with any more.  I am not a chemist.  My career has dealt with columns 3,4, and 5 of the periodic table...that is it!  And for those...just in the solid crystalline form.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

31 minutes ago, LittleWatchShop said:

Then I clean a bunch of brass tools (pin vises, etc.) and then the fluid is dark green. 

In this particular case you're probably see exactly what you're supposed to be seeing? In other words you clean the whole bunch of really dirty brass objects and now they're hopefully clean brass objects? Were they shiny brass objects before and now their frosty brass that would be bad but more than likely are just seeing all the tarnish and a little bit of the copper. As far as I know the only thing to make the solution blue or green would be the copper.

Then perception of cleaning? The perception of cleaning here by my definition is things look bright and shiny. So conceivably and I'm not a chemist either The ammonia probably as it does its thing changes its properties we need a chemist or a chemical engineer. So basically use simulated cleaning a whole bunch of watches all at once the solution is going to turn dirty and possibly green.

Conceivably though once the ammonia is all gone the solution would still clean because the soap like properties are still there it just won't have things bright and shiny.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, JohnR725 said:

Conceivably though once the ammonia is all gone the solution would still clean because the soap like properties are still there it just won't have things bright and shiny.

What I have observed in a very recent test...the fresh L&R does an incredible job of cleaning when the spent L&R was not having much effect.  So, I am pretty sure that there is a solubility thing going on, reducing the efficacy of the cleaner.  I wish I had done a before and after for it is dramatic.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I use L&R in my Pearl watch cleaning machine and have tried many others but always revert back to L&R. It does colour due to the oils & dirt etc but stays effective for many washes. With experience I just know when to change, it starts to require longer periods of washing to clean. To extend it’s life any really dirty parts I pre clean.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 2 months later...

I'm currently restoring one of these (mk V). I got lucky and the only thing broken was one of the switches and missing one jar lid.

Parts wise it was in horrible condition (think an actual mouse skeleton in the casing condition) so I'm just nearing the end of repainting/cleaning all the bits and pieces before moving on to the rewiring stage.

As I get closer to the end I'm left wondering what speed this thing should actually run at? I bought a new motor controller and am tossing up between using it or the rheostat it came with. I wired it up on the bench and the motor appears to run from "tortoise slow" right up to "spin my face off fast". Does anyone have any quantifiable figures for an approximate/max RPM this should be run at during the cleaning cycle?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 3 months later...

Hi all. I know that this is an older discussion, but to all those that own or have restored one of these machines (the 60's or 70's cream ones), I wondered what type of rheostat/potentiometer was fitted. Mine has a 5 tap variable resistance bar ( broken) but I wanted to change it to a fully variable rheo/pot.  It would be great to have sufficient detail to allow for easy purchase. I think I would need to include resistance (I am guessing 1.5k to 2k Ohm), but what sort of wattage. We are 240V here in Aus. Any details or links would be great.

Further, like a lot of machines, mine came without the 6.1cm baskets....the  one with the holes on each side to connect not the "up and turn type".  I saw a couple on a French ebay site but they would not post to Australia. I'd prefer not to change to the bigger Elma style basket, so if anyone knows where I can pick one up, please let me know.

Lastly, I have just purchased a Suisse Technik (Portescop) automatic Vibrasonic cleaning machine. I think Bulova also had a branded version. Apart from a single Swiss advertisement, I can't find any further information on the web. If anyone has, or knows where I can find manuals, user guides etc, I'd be grateful of a pdf or a chat. 

Cheers and thanks for reading to the end, John

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hi John

I recently restored a Mark V version of this and was also contemplating on replacing the rheostat. Turns out mine just needed a bit of a clean and worked fine after that.

The previous person who had been inside the machine helpfully wrote 2.5k on the rheostat, I measured it and it was accurate so hopefully that helps.

I'm in NZ so also 240V, I can't comment too much on the wattage, I did measure the amps being drawn at full load while I was doing the restoration but can't remember specifics. I can only say that it was quite low, my multimeter has a 250ma fuse and that didn't blow while running full tilt but did after a few "switch on" "switch off" cycles.

I can't help with your other two questions sorry!

Cheers

IMG_20210914_170332.jpg

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thanks for the response Darthkram. In the pic below you will see what I am trying to replace. It's a long (broken) variable resister with 4 taps giving 5 speed positions. It's a 1.5k ohm Cressell.1765975683_RosenthalPot.thumb.jpg.2b721754f805f28b5a7e1a72695db538.jpg The other pic is the potentiometer from my Elma super elite. It is a 2k ohm pot and has a series of markings on it - P40; WM110. If anyone knows what those markings mean, I'd be very interested as it may help in swapping out for a little less worn alternative

107897535_CressallResistor.thumb.jpg.7e47d4e92588c30054f1ffe4dd545e37.jpg

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Mark unpinned this topic
  • Mark pinned, unpinned and featured this topic
  • 1 year later...
On 6/11/2019 at 10:52 AM, yankeedog said:

I dont know about the ID of the coils but you could also cut sections , of oh say 12 AWG solid conductor wire and insert them inside the coils connecting the sections together.just so it's inserted for a few turns on each side. it will get hot.

There seems to be a lot you are unaware of. But you were ready to connect up unknown wire of unknown resistance and expose your home to these unknowns, man that could burn down your house. Check with a coffee warmer repair guy... your insurance guy must be a saint.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 3 months later...

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Restore formatting

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.




  • Recently Browsing

    • No registered users viewing this page.
  • Topics

  • Posts

    • Couple of things H. There surely seems to be a reoccurring fluctuation pattern  of somewhere around every 5 minutes. More noticable with your crown left trace having a large peak gradually reducing to 2 small peaks and troughs then back up to another large peak. Nev posted a download link to a book by Harold Kelly not so long back that i started to read while i was away. There was a good section on wheel and pinion ratios, rotation periods of wheels of different beat frequencies that's worth a read. Then something that bugs me comparing the amplitude and timing rate changes with your dial up trace which i chose to avoid wheel imbalances . The amplitude fluctuates by an extreme of 30 ° and the rate fluctuates by an extreme of 21 seconds as per your reading. In normal circumstances a movement dropping its power over the course of the mainspring unwinding, a hairspring acting isochronical will maintain its rate almost to the end of the power reserve. Similarly power wound into a movement increasing its amplitude from 265° to 295° a hairspring again acting isochronical will again maintain its rate aside from a brief few moments until it settles into it's rate. From that it seems to me that because the amplitude difference isn't big enough to affect a rate change then the amplitude fluctuation cause is not coming from anywhere but from the balance. So its whatever is causing the rate to change increase and decrease within the balance is also slowing and speeding up the hairspring swings. I'm not quite sure if I've just gone around in circles with that, it made sense to me when i started  😅
    • somewhere in the universe although as I'm answering this I remembered which discussion group. Somebody had a similar question loss basically expanded it to the watch would totally disintegrate in my think like 30 years. I'd have to go back and find the original discussion if I can the person seem to think that they hairspring would disintegrate like you describe and just metal on metal wearing out the entire watch. Except of course we all work on watches over 30 years and they obviously do not disintegrate. Plus somebody came along and explained why hairsprings do not have the same issues as mainsprings. Although hairsprings do end up with watchmakers insisting on bending and playing with them and torturing them etc. and that obviously is not good for the metal at all. one of the problems that you're having here it is what is the purpose of the test that started this discussion? Let me go and snip out the original image as you can see from images above this watch is horrible. Or is it? What is the purpose of the images up above in other words what exactly would use this test for? The real purpose this test is show the effect of amplitude on timekeeping. Or specifically you're looking for mechanical issues that are causing fluctuations in amplitude which unfortunately shows up  with timekeeping. or basically everything affects timekeeping but amplitude is affected by the mechanical characteristics of the watch from the mainspring to the balance wheel and unfortunately as it's a mechanical watch your always going to have power fluctuations. so how do we rule out unacceptable fluctuations versus the natural characteristic of the watch? Usually if you can find a repeating pattern you can narrow it down to the offending components for instance I'm attaching a PDF. on the second page of the PDF it talks about 21st-century equipment versus paper tape timing machines. Then they give an example of timing problems solely caused by a faulty component. although off you have a user's manual for a paper tape machine it does explain that you can find faulty components by looking at the variations on your paper tape seeing how often they repeat and do the same thing without the fancy software. Even though it was claimed that you couldn't do that in other words you couldn't find a pattern? One of the problems that comes up with modern LCD-based timing machines versus software is limited screen size. In other words it makes it very hard to look for patterns you'll see variations in numbers but it's hard to tell what's going on which is why the display above is really nice to see if there is a problem. for instance here's a paper printout from a witschi timing machine it does look distorted because I changed the speed at which the image would move across the screen. In other words I was trying to figure out a way to extend the screen to being much longer as I was looking for a pattern as you can see there doesn't appear to be a pattern at all so basically we end up with a watch that I cannot time at all they cannot really figure out what the problem is and I actually cannot find a pattern even begin the figure out where the problem might be. Plus I agreed to service this watch for free as I was going to use it for the purposes of a lecture. In other words it's a nice railroad grade pocket watch and I wanted to show before how horrible amplitude is and how wonderful it looks after serviced and after servicing it looked exactly the same still horrible. Then I used software for a clock timing machine and came up with this interesting image one a minor problems we have with time plots and  how they look is that they all do things a little bit differently. So this was occurring approximately every five minutes. Then we need another chart then I replaced something in the watch and we now get this one of the things that I was always bothered with was if I had put the hands on after servicing would the watch have Time? Because the pattern was repeating the watch would average that out may  it would have Time. Oh and what did I change somebody had swapped the mainspring barrel for something different were getting a binding between the mainspring in the center wheel pinion. so the problem you're having is what exactly is the problem? the purpose of the test image is to look for mechanical problems causing amplitude problems. Because it's a mechanical watch your always going to have variations so are the variations in this watch abnormal or normal for this watch? Once we eliminate the mechanical issues beyond it's a mechanical watch then you can work on timing issues. for timing issues I recommend going back to the normal display that were used to and make sure you have your averaging times set correctly. In other words while the graphical display is basically real time years of the numbers are averaged over time. Anywhere from 20 to 40 seconds depending upon whose specs you're looking at. So basically they will average out the problems were seeing on this time plot.   one of my amusements with students that go to the same school is that you have different instructors. So this gives you different experiences like what exactly is tight anyway as I don't remember any thing like this? Then did you know that Rolex at least in Geneva as I visited their service center replace all the screws in the watch every time they service the watch. then why did they do that because they use power screwdrivers and tighten those things down as tight as you can get them which has a problem. How many times can you tighten screw down really tight before the hints break off. So they replace the screws every single time. So personally I don't think they have to be so tight that you're in danger snapping head off that's too tight in my opinion. but the screws definitely shouldn't be falling out either which I've occasionally see and where people just don't tighten their screws tight enough.   Horologica Times -- May 2004 From the Workshop witschi time plot.pdf
    • I guess it is a possibility, but the train wheel bridge was pressed down all the way so I'm not so sure. Then again, the screws weren't tightened at all (imagine being screwed down all the way but using a piece of Rodico instead of a screwdriver). Anyway, the movement is now fully stripped so we'll have to see once I've assembled it again. BTW I found the post where @nickelsilver wrote about tightening screws: As he writes: "In school, if your screws aren't tight, like you think they might snap, you get your movement tossed in the sawdust box!" I'm really curious to know why it is so important to tighten the screws that hard. I usually stop when it feels like there is no chance the screw can start to unscrew itself. Also, screwing down that hard requires perfectly dressed and perfectly sized screwdrivers to avoid slippage and/or damaging the screw slot.
    • This place has them, cheaper than I saw on ebay and they appear to be a legitimate supplier: https://maddisonsofdurham.co.uk/watch-parts/capacitors/seiko-batteries-capacitors/seiko-capacitor-kinetic-30235mz-tc920s-5m42-5m22-5m23-battery-3023-5mz-3023-5my/?gad_source=1&gclid=CjwKCAjw7-SvBhB6EiwAwYdCASmviGb9G2ZGW3CtcUZBkNgglcgfPKoqnpOzrzruiPtm69f6DX7UGhoCKl4QAvD_BwE There is also a note at the bottom of the page about them being a newer type, with a slightly different part number.  
    • Are we ignoring  that another watch on tg showed similar rate fluctuation. Did I miss any conclusion made on this sigificant  point ?    Springs have high fatigue threshold,   meaning angle of  bend/distortion  has to be very sharp to cause material fatigue .  An evidence to this point is the bend we form at end of terminal curve or the bend at the collet,  are we causing fatigue there? definately not.       
×
×
  • Create New...