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Hello all!

I have been struggling with the matter of mainspring winders for a while and I want to share some of my experience with Bergeon mainspring winders.

First, there two major types:

the old ones, with a spoke on the arbor (30081):

spike.thumb.JPG.deebaa0e57c087fb986d6b42509b90b9.JPG

and the newer ones with a recess on the arbor (Nivarox):

recess.thumb.JPG.28770684456fcfca077079955db2e3ff.JPG

2795_1.thumb.jpg.32f94346e6e30bdbf559683b64f709e8.jpg

Side by side #6:

1604444423_spikevsrecess.thumb.JPG.e2bb9862aa78bb775315c6e3f3dabe69.JPG

 

to be continued...

tabel.JPG

2795_2.jpg

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The above are the two major types. From the second type, the Nivarox one, specialized winders emerged, meaning a specific winder for a specific caliber (ETA, Rolex).

From what I learned so far, the barrel and arbor diameters of both 30081 and nivarox sets are the same. The difference is that for the older type, with the hook, one would need to stretch the inner coil of the mainspring for it to accept the hook - when the second one, the Nivarox, don't - the Mainspring just fells in the recess and accepts the little hook in there. 

So with the second set you can work on mainsprings with lower inner coil diameters.

But of course, the newer calibers have smaller-diameter mainspring arbors...

to be continued...

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So for a watch enthusiast, working on a modern day 2824, 2892, 7750 is quite exciting. And you get to the point when you want excelence, so you start investing in tools. At some point you hear about Mainspring winders - used in professional environments - and you start drooling (considering the costs). So you start hunting for mainspring winders. First you win some bids on the older Bergeon style and some no-name-Bergeon-style winders. But you realise it's not enough, because there are about 17 sizes and you only have about the 6 smaller ones and few others - you are missing quite a few. Then you realize the difference between the newer ones and the older ones...

Then you decide to brake the piggy-bank and bid on the Nivarox 2795 17 sizes. And you win. And it arrives and you test it on your currently-opened-on-the-bench 2824. And the arbor is too big - you miss-shape the inner-coil  - you almoast have a stroke... :)))

So you start obsessing about them - you see that there are some Bergeon winders specifically for ETA - but you don't have the dough now... 

So you start obsessing about what to do to make them work...

 

to be continued...

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I will speak for the 2824 but the principle applyes to other calibers also.

for the 2824 you need the winder #7 - which has the exterior barrel of 10.8mm. AND you need the arbor to be about 2.5mm in diameter. But in the Nivarox set, the #7 piece has an arbour of 3.5mm.

**As a side note, in the 2795 Nivarox, as you also can see in the table above, there are two identical arbors for each two consecutive barrels. For example the arbors for #3 and #4 is 2.5mm. The arbors for #7 and #8 is 3.5mm. This is important, because you can mess with one of them (wait for it) without risking absolute failure.

So you need a 2.5mm arbor on a 10.8mm barrel for a 2824. So you take the #4 arbor and put it in the #7 barrel.

first problem: there is quite a gap between the 2.5mm arbor and the 3.5mm barrel sot the arbor willform an angle with the barrel.\the second problem: the disc on the #4 arbor is way smaller then the #7 barrel. And with the help of the first problem - the mainspring willescape through that gap.

 

So, ... to be continued...

 

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For the first problem I searched the internet and found brass pipes of 0.5mm increment with 0.22mm wall thickness (!).

bucsa.thumb.JPG.2cbe5af84b992b818ece922ce0820d1d.JPG

 

And I made some sort of bushes to fit the barrels:

bucsa_.thumb.JPG.f8a6600dec1be21ea5c0f16e10c83a89.JPG

For the #7 barrel I would need the 2.5mm-interior/3mm-exterior and the 3mm-interior/3.5mm-exterior:

bucsa_2.thumb.JPG.7f13934c9596aab1c4ed86e1151229e6.JPG

bucsa_3.thumb.JPG.c5417de2f17722f3affd2a88d7cd8da1.JPG

 

 

to be continued...

Edited by matabog

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And for the discs, I disassembled the #3, #5 and #7 arbors and manufactured some larger discs for them. The pictures are self explanatory:

exploded.thumb.JPG.01585e3a7a70bd451a3c5af390cddca4.JPG

assembled.thumb.JPG.fdd40e0e481597fb3bb50e51c0f865c7.JPG

assembled_.thumb.JPG.ac9c6bf3702221dce8b870b5685ea9c9.JPG

 

Comparison between the new ant the old sizes:

34.thumb.JPG.53e091f1dc9503db08080c437dfece37.JPG

56.thumb.JPG.3f2bc62136275276f26b9e86d842b0f5.JPG

78.thumb.JPG.f41576c332b8d86d70fa8728c06a45f3.JPG

 

 

 

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Great Post will follow your examples I have had the same issue you encountered. Also I found with the new Bergeon winder sets the gap that accepts the spring when winding was too small and had to file wider.

PS  are the bushes removable so you can use the tool as originally intended if needed.

 

PPS. Poor design from Bergeon considering the cost

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yes, the bushes are removable. There is no problem if the disc is larger then necessary - plus you have the other arbor (as I mentioned above, you have two identical arbors for each two consecutive barrels - you only modify one of them).

The tool can definitely be used as originally intended with no problem.

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6A817BDC-E7B6-44A6-B42C-AC270CD626E8.thumb.jpeg.e241bf90c87114452e237a338f4be31f.jpegGreat information and thanks for posting. I could not find those arbor diameter sizes anywhere so that is really useful. I had the same problem with no winder for Landeron 48 etc so just started to make one. Waiting for a 1mm carbide end mill to arrive from China to add the hook piece, and a M3 die to finish winding handle. The winder bit is going to be Nivarox style as this is what I saw to copy, but if that does not work the spoke type looks probably easier to make. Not sure if it is going to work, but cannot really see why it should not

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On 8/7/2018 at 10:53 PM, matabog said:

I have been struggling with the matter of mainspring winders for a while and I want to share some of my experience with Bergeon mainspring

Thanks for your posts. Very enlightening! Mainspring winders are unfortunately a struggle indeed. May I ask where you got the arbor diameters? I’ve been searching Bergeon’s site but couldn’t find the information. I don’t doubt your numbers but I’d like to know the arbor diameters for their movement specific winders as well. Thanks!

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...I measured them :) after I received them. The dimensions are for the Nivaflex version, the ones in the post. The table is a print screen from an excel file I made :)

Edited by matabog

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42 minutes ago, matabog said:

...I measured them :) after I received them.

Thanks! That's what I thought! After all, why should Bergeon provide this information when it could led to reduced sales?! :huh:

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You need to find someone that has the ETA winders set to give you the dimmensions.

What I know from a friend that bought only the 2824 winder - the arbor is 2,5mm. So I suppose the newer winders have smaller-diameter arbors. Which, I suppose, is good for the current calibers, but won't work for the older calibers (it won't catch the maisnpring, and the bigger-arbor winder will have a barrel too big).

So you need to know what you're working on.

 

I am satisfied with my Nivaflex set, together with the improv's I made on it, because I can use them for both older and newer calibers.

 

About the left hand arbors... I  use two consecutive barrels, the larger being smaller then the watch barrel - and I right-hand wind it in the smaller barrel and then push it in the bigger barrel. Then, I will finally push it in the watch barrel (I am talking about seikos, citizen and Orients).

 

p.s. I also have #6 and #7 left hand winders, which are 3 and 3,5mm. But I don't have the 2,5mm arbor... so, depending on the watch arbor diameter, I use the left hand winders or the small barrel-big barrel improv.

Good luck!

image.png.af5f6e08cd6af86acfc0eb344e61d50a.png

Edited by matabog

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