Jump to content

Why has the beat error changed ?


Recommended Posts

Not a problem, but out of curiosity : why has the beat error changed when I haven't removed the hairspring ?

I just fired up this lovely little Revue Cal 59 and it's showing a beat error of 0.7 m/s (DU & DD) - which I'm happy with, especially as the amplitude is 290 deg straight off.

But before I stripped and cleaned it, the beat error was 0.1 m/s. 

The cock has no beat error correction.

I had to remove the balance+hairspring for cleaning, but the stud is triangular and the regulator pin boot is fully closed, so there shouldn't be much difference there.

I was just wondering what could have caused the change in beat error ?

Mike

BTW this is my first Revue movement and I'm very impressed with the quality.

 

20180804_154855.jpg

WIN_20180727_17_00_37_Pro.jpg

Link to comment
Share on other sites

It’s a high grade movement and very good they are. It could just be down to you servicing it. I know it all sound backwards, might be the oil to much or too little. I would say is one of life’s little mystery’s

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Not such a mystery if you know how a TM gets its values...

A tic noise contains 3 or more single pulses, the 1st being the lowest. If too low, it is ignored and the next higher pulse is used instead - and voila, you will get a higher beat error and pleasing high amplitude reading..

Frank

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, praezis said:

Not such a mystery if you know how a TM gets its values...

A tic noise contains 3 or more single pulses, the 1st being the lowest. If too low, it is ignored and the next higher pulse is used instead - and voila, you will get a higher beat error and pleasing high amplitude reading..

Frank

Frank = genius !

I never considered it was the timegrapher. I suppose with everything lubricated, the first pulse could be quieter.

I can see  that the amplitude is high just by looking at the balance, the TM is now showing 300,

Correction .... I just set the lift angle to the correct 58 deg, and the amplitude is reading 340 deg,

So I'm hoping that the timegrapher is wrong or I might get rebanking.

 

Thanks

Edited by mikepilk
Link to comment
Share on other sites

The minutest amount of changes made to a watch can make big differences to it's performance. I always check a watches performance before and after a service. It is always different after the service including the beat. 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

17 hours ago, oldhippy said:

 

The timing machines back in the 70’s and 80’s are nowhere as good as the ones today.

I'm using a Weishi Timegrapher 1000. 

The movement is especially quiet, but I don't seem to be getting any rebanking. I  just put it back together so I'll wear it for a couple of days and see how it goes.

The quality of this watch has so impressed me - the way the bridges and dial fit, beautiful :thumbsu:.

I'll be looking out for more.

What do you rate as 'quality movements' ?

Of my own watches , Omega's from the 50's and 60's (I have Cals 565, 613, 620, 625) seem good - I prefer them to the later 1000 series which seem a bit flimsy in comparision. I also have a couple of Longines, Cal 23Z and 284 which impressed me. What's the next level up ?

 

20180805_154547.jpg

Link to comment
Share on other sites

How do you know that the lift angle is 58°? I'm looking at something that indicates it's 48°?

Then the Chinese 1000 timing machine is quite decent I doubt it's missing the first part of the waveform. Usually what the problem with waveform pickups on the Chinese machine are super low amplitude. The super low amplitude the middle part of the waveform looks like the ending part you get a really nice looking amplitude and visually the balance wheels motion totally sucks.

It really doesn't take that much to change the Beat in the watch. For instance put the watch on the timing machine in one of the dial positions note the beat. Then rotate to a pendant position try several of them notice how the beat changes? Gravity is pulling the hairspring down it's causing a very tiny rotation of the balance wheel shows up as a beat error. Remove the balance wheel from the bridge and any distortion of the spring will show up as something. Even though the stud is a nice shape there is a little bit a play in the hole This means you're always going to have a little bit a movement here that's will cause changes.

If you really want to see spectacular before and after changes in timing do an American pocket watch. The cleaning machine tends to loosen up the timing screws and I have a suspicion the drying temperature isn't good for the bimetallic balance wheel. There is usually quite interesting timing differences before and after on the older watches.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

37 minutes ago, JohnR725 said:

How do you know that the lift angle is 58°? I'm looking at something that indicates it's 48°?

Then the Chinese 1000 timing machine is quite decent I doubt it's missing the first part of the waveform. Usually what the problem with waveform pickups on the Chinese machine are super low amplitude. The super low amplitude the middle part of the waveform looks like the ending part you get a really nice looking amplitude and visually the balance wheels motion totally sucks.

It really doesn't take that much to change the Beat in the watch. For instance put the watch on the timing machine in one of the dial positions note the beat. Then rotate to a pendant position try several of them notice how the beat changes? Gravity is pulling the hairspring down it's causing a very tiny rotation of the balance wheel shows up as a beat error. Remove the balance wheel from the bridge and any distortion of the spring will show up as something. Even though the stud is a nice shape there is a little bit a play in the hole This means you're always going to have a little bit a movement here that's will cause changes.

If you really want to see spectacular before and after changes in timing do an American pocket watch. The cleaning machine tends to loosen up the timing screws and I have a suspicion the drying temperature isn't good for the bimetallic balance wheel. There is usually quite interesting timing differences before and after on the older watches.

My mistake John - I was looking at the wrong figure. With the timegrapher set to 48, I'm getting Dial Up 288/0.6 ms and Dial Down :, 288 / 0.5 ms, Crown down 230 / 0.9 ms.  I don't worry about beat error unless it's really large, especially on watches without an adjustment. You can spend ages playing around rotating the hairspring, with the chance of damage at every go.

I started out with American Pocket watches, I have some lovely Walthams. I use a small ultrasonic, so could have done something to the timing screws. It was good practice timing them. I have a couple of Riversides that keep amazingly good time

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

51 minutes ago, oldhippy said:

 

My Grandfather had a Vertex watch. When he died, it was left to me. I lent it at one time working as a watch/clock maker and never had it returned. The person gave a false number and address.

That's not nice. 

I sent a gold case from a Longines to  watchcaseworks for repair last year. Seemed one of the few places I could get a case repaired. I have had no reply, despite emails and letters. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 8/5/2018 at 12:59 PM, mikepilk said:

That's not nice. 

I sent a gold case from a Longines to  watchcaseworks for repair last year. Seemed one of the few places I could get a case repaired. I have had no reply, despite emails and letters. 

Yikes!  That's not good. Glad you mentioned it.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites



  • Recently Browsing

    • No registered users viewing this page.
  • Topics

  • Posts

    • Hi guys I think that old hippy is correct, it opens the gates for china to manufacture aftermarket spare parts. considering that they already do work on behalf of the Swiss I guess this decision gives the a little more legitimacy to tool up and I am sure they will take advantage of the situation either with or without the blessing of the Swiss watch industry  Having read about the protectionist machinations of the Swiss in the history of Europe they were the only ones to get fat at everybody else’s expense. I think the outcome could have been guessed at but ,  fair play to Cousins UK for standing up to them.  Now the question,  will everybody boycott Swiss watches and Swatch, no way they will still fill their coffers.  Me I stick with the Japanese once renowned for cheap shitty watches who came good through industrial effort and don’t for get the Russians that most dismiss as low grade crap. Wouldn’t buy a swatch product ever how about you all.? a
    • Hold the crown when in winding position, move the click away from the crown wheel, and then while holding the crown let it slowly unwind. I recollect that you must remove the automatic device bridge first, but maybe I'm wrong. You can first try without removing the automatic device bridge.
    • nevenbekriev- You nailed it with your description of me and my reaction when the clock started ticking again. I am a newbie.  I love the sound and idea of mechanical clocks but the idea of owning one and trying to keep them running has never appealed to me. My wife bought this one and an antique German wall clock.  When I looked into having someone repair them for me, the universal response was "it's really expensive to work on them, you should just replace the movement". So, I had nothing to lose, I started researching them and opened them up. The wife is happy because she hears the sound of the clocks again. But I have gone down the "accuracy" rabbit hole. In the vertical position, the balance wheel was not floating. It was sitting on the bottom of the frame. I adjusted the lower spring collet and got it floating. It easily passed the 270 degree 3 to 5 minute oscillation test. It took 8 minutes for the wheel to completely stop moving.  I put it the unit back in the movement and checked the safety pin. It does not touch the safety roller anywhere in +/-270 degrees rotation from neutral position. But the amplitude of the rotation with the spring fully wound is weak based on what you are saying. It rotates +/-90 degrees from the neutral position.  No, I did not take the movement completely apart.  That seemed way outside my skill set at the time. There is a reason I became an electrical engineer and not a mechanical engineer. I am much more comfortable with moving electrons than tiny moving metal parts. Will I do it in the long run? Anything can happen. I don't seem to be able to let it go.
    • Isn't that the same guy who told Zelenskyy to escalate the war with Russia/Putin when they already had a peace deal? 2 years later and we have half a million young Ukranian boys dead. He doesn't seem very clever...
×
×
  • Create New...