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east3rn

lubricating barrle wall for automatic movement

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Hello. 

I recently serviced a PUW 1561 automatic movement.

This was my first time servicing automatic movement and I am not confident on lubricating barrel wall.

I purchased Moebius 8217, breaking grease for the barrel wall.

The whole service was a quite long process for me so I will just get to my point.

On the cleaned barrel wall, I applied thin layer of 8217 thinking that too much would not do any good.

Then I placed the mainspring and applied 3 drops of Moebius 8200 before closed the barrel cap.

After I had assembled the watch, I tried winding it. It wound well but I could hear the mainspring slip in side the barrel when I felt some tension on the crown as I was winding.

I know that automatic mainspring slips along the barrel wheel but never experienced such 'obvious' slipping sound.

I guess the timegrapher tells that service was not that bad but I just don't feel right when hand winding the watch.

Is it something wrong in the barrel? May be I should have applied the 8217 more thicker?

Thanks for always helping me out. 

 

 

KakaoTalk_20180707_195916772.jpg

KakaoTalk_20180707_195916771.jpg

KakaoTalk_20180708_233117568.jpg

Edited by east3rn

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I’ve gotten the best results from 3 small drops, 120 degrees apart. It will slip for a little while the grease spreads but I’ve found that to leave behind even less than a full thin layer. You don’t want a lot.

A friend gifted me with some Rolex TEPA and that stuff is amazing for barrel walls so I just use that now.

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Looking at your timegrapher results it shows a big improvement but things are not perfect. If it was me I would re-clean the balance and escape again and inspect for any loose pallet stones etc. The auto spring should slip but not until almost a full wind. If it does not have a full wind before slippage the watch will have very little power reserve. My method is to place three small amounts of lubrcant to the barrel wall.

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8 hours ago, Narcissus said:

I’ve gotten the best results from 3 small drops, 120 degrees apart. It will slip for a little while the grease spreads but I’ve found that to leave behind even less than a full thin layer. You don’t want a lot.

A friend gifted me with some Rolex TEPA and that stuff is amazing for barrel walls so I just use that now.

Thank you for your advice. I would try it if mainpring keeps making slipping sound..

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8 hours ago, clockboy said:

Looking at your timegrapher results it shows a big improvement but things are not perfect. If it was me I would re-clean the balance and escape again and inspect for any loose pallet stones etc. The auto spring should slip but not until almost a full wind. If it does not have a full wind before slippage the watch will have very little power reserve. My method is to place three small amounts of lubrcant to the barrel wall.

I always wanted to know how to check if the pallet stones are loose. 

Could you give me some tips?

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Breaking grease is an interesting substance too little and the spring doesn't slip, too much it slips early and basically won't even hold at all.

In addition to all the things you're supposed be checking above how did you lubricate the escapement? A variety of things can cause the waveform to not quite look right and not proper lubrication of the escapement is one of those. Then at the link below someone servicing the same movement and it's possible it's just the quality of the escapement because the waveform in the link isn't really that impressive either.

http://watchguy.co.uk/service-arowe-puw-1561/

 

 

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2 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

Breaking grease is an interesting substance too little and the spring doesn't slip, too much it slips early and basically won't even hold at all.

It depends by the spring design I guess. For example, on Seiko no special grease is used at the factory, or needed should one decide to service the MS. The thickness and shape of the bridle ensures that it works just fine anyway.  

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Seiko is strange for lubrication because it depends on which tech sheet you look at. Like pallet fork pivots I can find tech sheets that show that it should be lubricated and other tech sheets show it should not. Then I think I even found one watch that one sheet said yes and another said no and it was the exact same watch? So for instance 2706a Image attached out of the service sheet.

Then the video below interesting in that almost at the very end it shows applying the lubrication which I think is the Rolex lubrication. What I find interesting is the quantity of lubrication.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7KNTrHVD088

Seiko mainspring barrel oil.JPG

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43 minutes ago, JohnR725 said:

Seiko is strange for lubrication because it depends on which tech sheet you look at. Like pallet fork pivots I can find tech sheets that show that it should be lubricated and other tech sheets show it should not. Then I think I even found one watch that one sheet said yes and another said no and it was the exact same watch? So for instance 2706a Image attached out of the service sheet.

Reassuring to know, they have the same disagreements on lubrication as the rest of the watchmaking world :biggrin: 

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On ‎7‎/‎8‎/‎2018 at 7:44 AM, east3rn said:

Hello. 

I recently serviced a PUW 1561 automatic movement.

This was my first time servicing automatic movement and I am not confident on lubricating barrel wall.

I purchased Moebius 8217, breaking grease for the barrel wall.

The whole service was a quite long process for me so I will just get to my point.

On the cleaned barrel wall, I applied thin layer of 8217 thinking that too much would not do any good.

Then I placed the mainspring and applied 3 drops of Moebius 8200 before closed the barrel cap.

After I had assembled the watch, I tried winding it. It wound well but I could hear the mainspring slip in side the barrel when I felt some tension on the crown as I was winding.

I know that automatic mainspring slips along the barrel wheel but never experienced such 'obvious' slipping sound.

I guess the timegrapher tells that service was not that bad but I just don't feel right when hand winding the watch.

Is it something wrong in the barrel? May be I should have applied the 8217 more thicker?

Thanks for always helping me out. 

 

 

KakaoTalk_20180707_195916772.jpg

KakaoTalk_20180707_195916771.jpg

KakaoTalk_20180708_233117568.jpg

    if you have the main spring out,  lube it.  it will transfur to the barrel wall.  vin

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Keep it simple...fully wind the watch and see what power reserve you are getting.

40hrs plus (if you've replaced the mainspring) jobs a good'en

 

If you didn't replace the mainspring...you should've!

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On 7/8/2018 at 10:28 AM, clockboy said:

Looking at your timegrapher results it shows a big improvement but things are not perfect. If it was me I would re-clean the balance and escape again and inspect for any loose pallet stones etc. The auto spring should slip but not until almost a full wind. If it does not have a full wind before slippage the watch will have very little power reserve. My method is to place three small amounts of lubrcant to the barrel wall.

I'm curious as to what you see on the timegrapher trace to indicate loose pallet stones.  The parameters look pretty good to me and the trace is pretty solid.  Not trying to be critical, but curious.  I work primarily on vintage movements and a trace like that would be almost orgasmic for me.


Thanks,


RMD

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I always put the crown to the metal parts of the timegrapher. I have experience that it's not always the best if in the case and i am not putting the crown to the left. Can be that the case use a plastic spacer and the TG won't hear the sound as good.  

Interesting as i have a Lemania 3600  that i changed the spring in . Used the same method as you did.  Feels like it slipping . But the TG says it runs okay. Time will tell if i works as it should. 

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2 hours ago, rduckwor said:

I work primarily on vintage movements and a trace like that would be almost orgasmic for me.

If you look carefully at the actual statement its loose pallet stones etc. It's more of a generalization statement. The graphical display comes from the sounds of the escapement. One side of the escapement produces one line the other side the other line. Then there's a problem with timing machines and liquid crystal displays we can see the pixels. So the upper line is migrating relatively straight across the display moving up one pixel at a time but remaining straight. The lower line looks like it's wandering around both going up and down. It really should look more like the upper line. So anything that affects the escapement affects the sounds shows up on the display. As it looks like only one side then it would be typically one side of the escapement. So loose pallet stone possibly even the roller jewel which would affect both could be damaged and I've even seen a loose roller jewel only show up on one side. Escapement lubrication one stone gets lubricated the other does not look like this along with anything that screws up the escapement dirty escapement etc. So cleaning examining and re-lubricating would be a good idea. Then a watch made in the early 70s isn't exactly a vintage watch it really should look a little better.

loose pallet stones.JPG

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23 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

Then there's a problem with timing machines and liquid crystal displays we can see the pixels. So the upper line is migrating relatively straight across the display moving up one pixel at a time but remaining straight. The lower line looks like it's wandering around both going up and down. It really should look more like the upper line.

I'm think that is more an artifact of the low res display of the 1000 model than a real problem. In my opinion in the picture above the relation between lines is good, only the instrument draws some point one pixel off due to to rounding algorithm.
In other words it makes you see things worst than they are. 

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Thanks to both of you.  With the close up, the variation is easier to see.   The curious thing to me on the close up is that the variation in the lower line appear in groups of one, two and three pixels.  That may well be a function of the 'resolution as well.  Thanks.  I learn from every post.


RMD

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