Those Vintage oris that stop working a month or so after cleaned

[nickelsilver]

Most ultrasonic cleaners have a frequency around 40khz. It's sort of the standard, and any machine you get will be the 'correct' power as the transducer is sized for the size of the bath. I don't know about the little plastic ones that go for cheap. If you really want or need to clean cap/hole jewel assemblies assembled I'm not sure how successful you'll be with the regular solvents a hobbiest might use; the commercial pro cleaning solutions are definitely more effective. You can't really peg properly if it's assembled, which would normally compensate for a simpler cleaning ritual (lighter fluid etc.).

Can you post a pic of the jewel assembly?

[Nucejoe]

19 minutes ago, nickelsilver said:

Most ultrasonic cleaners have a frequency around 40khz. It's sort of the standard, and any machine you get will be the 'correct' power as the transducer is sized for the size of the bath. I don't know about the little plastic ones that go for cheap. If you really want or need to clean cap/hole jewel assemblies assembled I'm not sure how successful you'll be with the regular solvents a hobbiest might use; the commercial pro cleaning solutions are definitely more effective. You can't really peg properly if it's assembled, which would normally compensate for a simpler cleaning ritual (lighter fluid etc.).

Can you post a pic of the jewel assembly?

Thank you Nickelsilver, informative as usual,  I will post some pix in matter of hours.I don,t plan to let go of you before my problem is fixed. 

You take apprentice? 

Regards joe

[Nucejoe]

Hi NickelSilver, got this off of ranfft

 

[HSL]

I think patience is one of the key factors in the discipline of watch cleaning... and a quick revisit to the high school chemistry lessons. I usually slept through these but some how some things sticked.
Cleaning a watch is about chemistry since one wants to get rid off for example old oil and grease.

So first we have to loosen up the old dirt, since it mostly are different kind of petrol residues we want to get rid off any kind of mild degreaser is good, any kind of petroleum product can be used.
One have to patiently let it soak for a while before moving to the next stage.

When the residues are nice and soft they can be cleaned off. To do this you have to expose the residues to an alkaline solution, this is the key component in any cleaning solution, to get an alkaline solution you can use sodium hydroxide or potassium hydroxide solved in distilled water. Warning! A too strong solution will be extremely corrosive so you have to try which amount of chemicals you have to use, preferably test it on a couple of scrap movements. Nowadays I always use an ultrasonic cleaning machine.

To rinse of the alkaline solution I usually rinse the parts first in chemically pure petrol and later in an 99.5% alcohol solution, the alcohol will bind all the water one might have missed to get away from the ultrasonic bath, it's the same trick used in cars to bind water in petroleum..

If there is rust on some parts I clean these later on with a slight acidic solution, white wine vinegar in distilled water works great. and then carefully rinse the solution off.

For the pegging work in the jewels and any eventual rust removal I use my new favorite, bamboo toothpicks, these can be sharpened to extremely thin points and at the same time be gentle on the jewels.

I always clean the palletfork and balance separately but this is just a thing I'm used to do.

So the path for me when leaving the jewels in when cleaning is: 
1. Use a petroleum product to solve oil and grease. 
2. Use an alkaline to remove the oil. Use an acidic solution for rust removal. 
3. Rinse first in a clean petroleum product. 
4. Second rinse in an alcohol.
5.Peg jewels with a super sharp bamboo toothpick.

To try to clean any old oil residue can be very hard but tips and tricks like this should work with any brand of watch even Oris, but I leave no warranties ;). 

The picture presents an Oris Cal. 718 ticking away one year after cleaning.. 

 

[nickelsilver]

That's got a Kif that should be disassemble-able. Rotate the spring and it should come out. You can use a piece of pegwood that's been cupped slightly to press gently on the spring while turning.

[Nucejoe]

Thank you HSL, will test a batch with your approach and report back.

Tnank you Nickelsilver, cab spring removal is easy,  the problem is , jewel/cab assembly turns out, not tight in place upon reinstallation.

Not much improvement even with cab installed upside down ie: springs concave side up.

Out of dispare I plan to combine all advice.

Cheers

[Nucejoe]

Thank you HSL, will test a batch with your approach and report back. 

Tnank you Nickelsilver, cab spring removal is easy,  the problem is , jewel/cab assembly turns out, not tight in place upon reinstallation.

Not much improvement even with cab installed upside down ie: springs concave side up.

Out of dispare I plan to combine all advice.

Cheers

[nickelsilver]

Joe, you'll have to master those kifs. I don’t think you'll ever get a truly satisfactory result othwise. Check the springs closely, if they are loose they may have a crack somewhere- it can happen even with special kif tools and being extra careful.

[oldhippy]

When you take those parts apart. It is very important to put them back in the same way, do not mix them up. If you have a good watch cleaning machine and good cleaner and rinse, you don’t need to take them apart.

[Wdc]

Interesting, are you saying if you have a good cleaner, one does not have to strip a movement down to oil and service it?

[oldhippy]

No that is not right. I am saying with a good watch cleaning machine there is no need to remove the shock on the top and bottom of the balance.

[Nucejoe]

Hi everyone,      No doubt I was not getting the jewels clean enough, thanks to OH the simple lighter fluid made profound difference. I see the results on pinions clearly and concluded jewels must have got as cleaned  Cleaning machines were not universally used for fun, they were standard tools at every repair shop in heydays of mechanical watches, the period we know every movement was not taken apart to the smallest pieces. The problem I think to be expected now, is the quality of cleaning solutions with many fake ones out there plus the fact vintage dried oil were not dried back in those days.

Ultrasonics sound promissing, NickelSilver answered my question regarding the source power, but went back to sound basics "take the jewel out and peg" yet informative as usual , spoke of special kif tools.

Vin introduced isopropinal, I am yet to reach conclusion and am not sure if I was sold is isopropinol.

HSL Speaks of proper use of chemicals.Acids, alkaline...proceedure.

All advices are valid and the problem is a pain, the freshest oil on these vintage Oris is fifty years dried.

I am thinking of making use of all advice, each is rightfully valid.

I am also tempted to try jewels in boiling water or some sort of hot vat with chemicals as my own advice to be added to all.

Every problem has at least one solution and with your help will be found. No one is wrong the problem is a mad cow desease.

Geo as usual talks little but advices hard earned experience.

Thank you all, will report back with more results.

 Best wishes      joe

 

 

[Nucejoe]

Isn,t the question answering itself.

If you clean well with cleaning machine, it is clean.

Regards joe

[Nucejoe]

4 hours ago, Wdc said:

Interesting, are you saying if you have a good cleaner, one does not have to strip a movement down to oil and service it?

Thanks for joining in, stay please.

[Wdc]

17 hours ago, oldhippy said:

No that is not right. I am saying with a good watch cleaning machine there is no need to remove the shock on the top and bottom of the balance.

Wishful thinking on my part I guess. Hoping you knew of a new Dip & Dry cleaner...lol 

[HSL]

Well magic potions, wishful thinking or not the point is you have to clean the watch and oil it properly to get a chance to make a proper faultfinding, like when you are testing anything else you have to establish an baseline to compare against.

Once you buy a watch it's flawless (hopefully) and runs smooth as a slick pimp. That is the baseline you want to compare with, if the watch isn't clean enough you might see strange patterns that will appear in the time graph mostly caused by dirt and oil affecting the mechanism.

Now in the case of a watch running perfect for months and all of a sudden halts one would suspect the fault might be parts of old oil suddenly getting loose and blocking the action some were. 
It's unlikely any worn pivot/jewel since the watch most probably forced the drive train to affect all the pivots/jewels in the watch more than once in a month.

In this case I probably would take a close look at the keyless and the motion works since Joe cleaned the watch more than once, most often in a watch this is the place you would find buildup of rust due to condensation inside the watch and this will if not cleaned away with the proper treatment jam the motion works for sure.
The second place is the mainspring, a bad dry mainspring will have the exact same symptoms too.

This is just some thoughts and quirky theories formed by a theoretical watch enthusiast...

[Nucejoe]

47 minutes ago, HSL said:

Well magic potions, wishful thinking or not the point is you have to clean the watch and oil it properly to get a chance to make a proper faultfinding, like when you are testing anything else you have to establish an baseline to compare against.

Once you buy a watch it's flawless (hopefully) and runs smooth as a slick pimp. That is the baseline you want to compare with, if the watch isn't clean enough you might see strange patterns that will appear in the time graph mostly caused by dirt and oil affecting the mechanism.

Now in the case of a watch running perfect for months and all of a sudden halts one would suspect the fault might be parts of old oil suddenly getting loose and blocking the action some were. 
It's unlikely any worn pivot/jewel since the watch most probably forced the drive train to affect all the pivots/jewels in the watch more than once in a month.

In this case I probably would take a close look at the keyless and the motion works since Joe cleaned the watch more than once, most often in a watch this is the place you would find buildup of rust due to condensation inside the watch and this will if not cleaned away with the proper treatment jam the motion works for sure.
The second place is the mainspring, a bad dry mainspring will have the exact same symptoms too.

This is just some thoughts and quirky theories formed by a theoretical watch enthusiast...

Hi HSL and merry christmas from Iran.

 To join my collection, Watches would undergo series of test, all parts are removed cleaned and ones that don,t get damaged by brush get brushed inside cleaning fluid, any sign of rust, discoloration, scratches bend and the sort would disqualify the part for reuse. The one year test ie: runing with little wind , a year after serviced overrides to reject the reconditioning.

One operation I can,t do is replacing balance staffs mainly because I relied on 57 years of my late friend watchrepairer's experience, since I was sure the remaining life of me is inadequate to match his experience. I am now stuck with more than a thousand balance wheels needing staff repalcement. 

I would say the only good design on vintage 7 jewles Oris calender pointers is the keyless.

 Intuitive of you to expand on theroy, please stay with this thread.

Regards joe

[Nucejoe]

On 10/3/2018 at 5:19 PM, Tmuir said:

If you do not have a cleaning machine you will need to 'peg out' all the pivots holes.

Get yourself some peg wood, if you don't want to buy it from watch suppliers I've been told people use bamboo skewers sucseddfully, although I've never used them. Then sharpen to a point eitehr with a knife or a pencil sharpener. Gently place the tip in the pivot or jewel hole and rotate. Check the point if it is dirty resharpen it and repeat until it comes out clean. You need to check you dont leave behind any dust from the pegwood too.

Once you have finished rinse again in lighter fuel.

You need to oil all the pivots once in place too, except the pivot on the anchor, do not oil these.

Dose oil seep through staff jewel hole, dry out on concave side of staff jewel which is surounded by jewel housing, if so when soaking to clean, this oil  absorbs cleaning solution and gelatinze and eventually dries out again. Pegging inside the jewel housing seems impractical.

Do you aim at cleaning inside the jewel hole only? 

 

[Tmuir]

I only clean the end stone, not the jewel hole on the balance jewels mechanically.

You need to remove the the jewels, separate them and clean the end stone.

If they are really dirty you will need to soak them in some acetone for a while before the end stone will separate for the lower jewel housing.

[rodabod]

What Tmuir said. You must always disassemble the balance jewel assembly as you can’t rely on your cleaning machine to remove dried oil. Sometimes it is like varnish and must be scraped off with peg wood. 

[Nucejoe]

1 hour ago, rodabod said:

What Tmuir said. You must always disassemble the balance jewel assembly as you can’t rely on your cleaning machine to remove dried oil. Sometimes it is like varnish and must be scraped off with peg wood. 

Cleaning cap jewel and pegging the hole in pivot jewels is rather easy.

What I am concerned with is the oil that may have accumulated on the concave side of cap jewel which faces inside the jewel housing. 

[rodabod]

9 hours ago, Nucejoe said:

Cleaning cap jewel and pegging the hole in pivot jewels is rather easy.

What I am concerned with is the oil that may have accumulated on the concave side of cap jewel which faces inside the jewel housing. 

The cap jewel is flat on the side which faces inside the jewels housing and must be cleaned. The “jewel hole” on the side which faces inside is concave and should also be cleaned. Basically, if it doesn’t reflect light brightly then it probably needs cleaning. 

The same applies to pallet stone faces; they must reflect light and look perfectly clean. 

[oldhippy]

Use one of these, soak the jewels in  Ronsonol lighter fluid.

[Nucejoe]

4 hours ago, oldhippy said:

Use one of these, soak the jewels in  Ronsonol lighter fluid.

 

Thank you, will do, I gather the oil I refer to is eiher insignificant in amount , effect or will disolve in Ronson lighter fluid  etc. Several months of anticipation to find out how well I have serviced these movements  makes me seek all I can do in first go.

Regards joe

 

 

[Nucejoe]

5 hours ago, rodabod said:

The cap jewel is flat on the side which faces inside the jewels housing and must be cleaned. The “jewel hole” on the side which faces inside is concave and should also be cleaned. Basically, if it doesn’t reflect light brightly then it probably needs cleaning. 

The same applies to pallet stone faces; they must reflect light and look perfectly clean. 

Thank you for taking the time to explain, I will service a batch as advised,  for test and will report back.

Regards joe.