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Nucejoe

Those Vintage oris that stop working a month or so after cleaned

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Hi everyone. Some vintage oris stop running not long after cleaned, I am sure the problem is common with vintage oris 677 kif and 704 kif.since I got many of them. I think of worn down staffs or weak main spring as the cause.

Interestingly dropping one drop of aircraft fuel on top of the upper and lower jewels of balance wheel only and it fly like combat jet.

Lots of hope to recieve your opinion.

Regards joe

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Here's another thing to think about.  The issue you are experiencing happened to me on one of the first movements I cleaned.

If you are only soaking the parts as you state, there is a very good chance that there are still tiny bits of age hardened oil in some of the jewels.  When assembled for the first time the watch will more often or not run OK.  But after a few days or weeks, the small pieces of old hard oil starts to soften and expand because the fresh oil slowly seeps into it.  This then grips the pivots and the watch will either run slow or stop.

I suggest you purchase an inexpensive ultrasonic cleaner as the vibrations will blast away the old oil that has turned to varnish.

I have been safely using an ultrasonic bath for years with great effect.  One thing though, NEVER use it to clean dials.

Wishing you good success.

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How are you cleaning them initially? If it takes off with solvent on the jewels then you have a lubrication issue, either gumming up or not existent. If the jewels aren't properly clean before oiling you will have problems.

Worn pivot holes will generally be slightly oval, and in the direction of wear there is actually more contact with the pivot, increasing friction. In a watch like this you can probably get by with closing the hole slightly with a staking set and then broaching back to size. Pivots are best refinished with a Jacot tool.

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Most of the Oris movements are pin-levers with not much jewelling. They wear at the pivots and also the pin-lever.

They also need new mainsprings but these will usually run for a few hours before stopping.

Anilv

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On 6/26/2018 at 2:25 PM, oldhippy said:

 

If the train is not fully jewelled you need to look for wear on the pivots and pivot holes.  

Sir:

Other than visual checking for wear on pivots and side shake for pivot holes

are there other ways to examine pivot holes for wear?

When cleaned, these seven jewel oris pointers run good AND for thirty hours on full wind, however, I find some of them refuse to budge after couple months of rest ( not run )  AND then a drop of lighter fluid on balance and fork jewels, they run at full amplitute again. I am stuck with several hundered oris in such state.

I much appreciate your advice.

Regards

 

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Hi, thank you for hopeful help.

Lucky I got plenty of used spare ebauche, Once I identify a worn pivot, expectedly replacement is doable, or is it?  easier than braching for me. My problems is: I can,t  see the wear in pivot hole, they all look the same to me, I think I need a microscope. 

 Cleaning !!!     I let soak in several solvent sometimes for days. Jet fuel oxidses the oil/ grease to salt, then auto fuel to soften gumming, next paint thinner and back to jet fuel and I keep shaking the container, I don,t have a cleaning machine. Very obviously not good enough, here I can use your advice again, what cleaning solvent or equipment do you recommend? Lighter fluid is locally available here and I  think I can get ETHER as well. I need lots of advice on cleaning.

Regards 

Joe

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On 6/27/2018 at 7:54 AM, anilv said:

Most of the Oris movements are pin-levers with not much jewelling. They wear at the pivots and also the pin-lever.

They also need new mainsprings but these will usually run for a few hours before stopping.

Anilv

Hi, I got a pile of oris movement for parts, out of them I should be able to get enough good pivots and pin- lever. My problem has been how to see a good pivot from a worn out one, I now think I need a microscpoe.

The next issue is how best to clean the bridge jewels. Being vintage dried out oil is expectedly the iissue.

Awaiting your advice.

Regards

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If you do not have a watch cleaning machine. The best and safest way of cleaning the balance and pivot holes is to use Ronsonol lighter fluid. It is shellac friendly.  You will need a sealable small jar as it evaporates quickly. A fibreglass brush is very good at cleaning away old dry oil. After cleaning you put the parts on some tissue paper and then use your bench blower to remove the access.  

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9 hours ago, Nucejoe said:

Hi, thank you for hopeful help.

Lucky I got plenty of used spare ebauche, Once I identify a worn pivot, expectedly replacement is doable, or is it?  easier than braching for me. My problems is: I can,t  see the wear in pivot hole, they all look the same to me, I think I need a microscope. 

 Cleaning !!!     I let soak in several solvent sometimes for days. Jet fuel oxidses the oil/ grease to salt, then auto fuel to soften gumming, next paint thinner and back to jet fuel and I keep shaking the container, I don,t have a cleaning machine. Very obviously not good enough, here I can use your advice again, what cleaning solvent or equipment do you recommend? Lighter fluid is locally available here and I  think I can get ETHER as well. I need lots of advice on cleaning.

Regards 

Joe

  isopropinal (alcohol),   you can get it at the drug store.  vin

Edited by vinn3
more info.

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If you do not have a cleaning machine you will need to 'peg out' all the pivots holes.

Get yourself some peg wood, if you don't want to buy it from watch suppliers I've been told people use bamboo skewers sucseddfully, although I've never used them. Then sharpen to a point eitehr with a knife or a pencil sharpener. Gently place the tip in the pivot or jewel hole and rotate. Check the point if it is dirty resharpen it and repeat until it comes out clean. You need to check you dont leave behind any dust from the pegwood too.

Once you have finished rinse again in lighter fuel.

You need to oil all the pivots once in place too, except the pivot on the anchor, do not oil these.

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Hi all, 

The recommended Ronson lghter fluid is not available domestically here, zippo brand is supplied instead, even this according to the salesman is not genuine and is only cheap chinees stuff. I got me a can of zippo lighter fluid anyway.

My question now is how long are the parts to be soaked in zippo lighter fluid, what other solutions if any am I to use for the rinse etc.

My main concern are the staff jewels with dried vintage oil, other parts I can get to with brush or pegwood.

Thanks for your help.

Regqrds joe

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11 minutes ago, oldhippy said:

With Ronson lighter fluid, you could leave parts in a sealed jar for days. Just remove the parts, place them on some tissue paper, and use your blower. It evaporates very quickly. You do not need a rinse.  

 

Thank you Sir, will test and reports my observation.

I plan to oftenly check the for possible corrosion etc, since the lighter fluid is not the Ronson you recommended.

Many thanks

Regards joe

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On 10/3/2018 at 3:00 PM, Geo said:

Here's another thing to think about.  The issue you are experiencing happened to me on one of the first movements I cleaned.

If you are only soaking the parts as you state, there is a very good chance that there are still tiny bits of age hardened oil in some of the jewels.  When assembled for the first time the watch will more often or not run OK.  But after a few days or weeks, the small pieces of old hard oil starts to soften and expand because the fresh oil slowly seeps into it.  This then grips the pivots and the watch will either run slow or stop.

I suggest you purchase an inexpensive ultrasonic cleaner as the vibrations will blast away the old oil that has turned to varnish.

I have been safely using an ultrasonic bath for years with great effect.  One thing though, NEVER use it to clean dials.

Wishing you good success.

Hi,  Thank you , Based on your advice, I am shopping for an ultrasonic machine to clean dried up vintage oil, as you put it " blast away the old oil that has turned to varnish". Any machine you specifically recommend? Sepecification I presume as to the frequency and else, or just any ultrasonic machine which says good for jewelry and watches. My main concern is cleaning the balance jewels on kif Oris.

Thank you.

Regards joe

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On 10/2/2018 at 12:22 PM, nickelsilver said:

How are you cleaning them initially? If it takes off with solvent on the jewels then you have a lubrication issue, either gumming up or not existent. If the jewels aren't properly clean before oiling you will have problems.

Worn pivot holes will generally be slightly oval, and in the direction of wear there is actually more contact with the pivot, increasing friction. In a watch like this you can probably get by with closing the hole slightly with a staking set and then broaching back to size. Pivots are best refinished with a Jacot tool.

Hi, Thank you Sir. Thank you thank you . Regards joe

 

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Thank you all for good advice ,  thank you geo, Nickelsilver, vin, anvil , OH and Tmuir and all others who confirmed your all's advice,  I am getting me an ultrasonic cleaning machine, a USB digital microscope and feel confident I get good results. 

Reporting back on use of lighter fluid, the parts are now the cleanest I have ever seen.

Thank you all.

Regards joe

 

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On 10/2/2018 at 12:22 PM, nickelsilver said:

How are you cleaning them initially? If it takes off with solvent on the jewels then you have a lubrication issue, either gumming up or not existent. If the jewels aren't properly clean before oiling you will have problems.

Worn pivot holes will generally be slightly oval, and in the direction of wear there is actually more contact with the pivot, increasing friction. In a watch like this you can probably get by with closing the hole slightly with a staking set and then broaching back to size. Pivots are best refinished with a Jacot tool.

How do you reccomend I clean the dried vintage oil.  I intend to try and combine all advice I got so far. Namely ,Lighter fluid and isopropinal with pegging and ultrasonic vibro shocks. I have no idea of the tech specifications of ultrasonic machine I should buy like;    frequency ?     Source energy strength? 

 

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On 10/2/2018 at 12:22 PM, nickelsilver said:

How are you cleaning them initially? If it takes off with solvent on the jewels then you have a lubrication issue, either gumming up or not existent. If the jewels aren't properly clean before oiling you will have problems.

Worn pivot holes will generally be slightly oval, and in the direction of wear there is actually more contact with the pivot, increasing friction. In a watch like this you can probably get by with closing the hole slightly with a staking set and then broaching back to size. Pivots are best refinished with a Jacot tool.

How do you recommend I clean that dried vintage oil? I intend to combine all advice I received so far, namely lighter fluid, isopropinol, pegging and ultrasonic vibro shocks.

I have no idea of the tech specifications of ultrasonic machine I shall buy.

Such as frequency range? source energy strength? 

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I find old oil that has dried on the cap stones for balance jewels requires manual cleaning.

For these I remove the jewels and drop them in a small container of acetone and let them sit there for about 5 minutes and then remove them and hold them with tweezers and carefully using some sharpened peg wood I scrape off the old oil, it may take 2 soaks in acetone to completely clean if they are really bad.

For everything else The ultrasonic cleaner does a good enough job.

For my ultrasonic I just bought a cheap Chinese one. I fill it with water and put in the basket and use that to hold small jars of cleaning fluid to clean the parts.

I cant remember if mine was 2 or 3 Litre, model, but buy the biggest you can afford in case you ever need to clean clocks.

This is very similar to mine.

https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/CO-Z-3L-Professional-Ultrasonic-Cleaner-with-Digital-Timer-Heater-for-Cleaning/113382988397?hash=item1a66271a6d:g:AeIAAOSwBJVb8n7I:rk:25:pf:0

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On 10/2/2018 at 12:22 PM, nickelsilver said:

How are you cleaning them initially? If it takes off with solvent on the jewels then you have a lubrication issue, either gumming up or not existent. If the jewels aren't properly clean before oiling you will have problems.

Worn pivot holes will generally be slightly oval, and in the direction of wear there is actually more contact with the pivot, increasing friction. In a watch like this you can probably get by with closing the hole slightly with a staking set and then broaching back to size. Pivots are best refinished with a Jacot tool.

How do recoomend I clean that dried vintage oil? I intend to put to use all advice I received so far, namely use of lighter fluid, isopropinol and peg and ultrasonic cleaning machine. I have no idea what  ultrasonic machine I should buy,

thanks

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18 minutes ago, Tmuir said:

I find old oil that has dried on the cap stones for balance jewels requires manual cleaning.

For these I remove the jewels and drop them in a small container of acetone and let them sit there for about 5 minutes and then remove them and hold them with tweezers and carefully using some sharpened peg wood I scrape off the old oil, it may take 2 soaks in acetone to completely clean if they are really bad.

For everything else The ultrasonic cleaner does a good enough job.

For my ultrasonic I just bought a cheap Chinese one. I fill it with water and put in the basket and use that to hold small jars of cleaning fluid to clean the parts.

I cant remember if mine was 2 or 3 Litre, model, but buy the biggest you can afford in case you ever need to clean clocks.

This is very similar to mine.

https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/CO-Z-3L-Professional-Ultrasonic-Cleaner-with-Digital-Timer-Heater-for-Cleaning/113382988397?hash=item1a66271a6d:g:AeIAAOSwBJVb8n7I:rk:25:pf:0

The problem with vintage Oris kif jewels is, Once removed , reinstallation would never sit as snug as factory installed, which leaves cleaning in place as my only option. My attempts to Peg with jewel in place in cock, has so far been ineffective.

Regards joe

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Most ultrasonic cleaners have a frequency around 40khz. It's sort of the standard, and any machine you get will be the 'correct' power as the transducer is sized for the size of the bath. I don't know about the little plastic ones that go for cheap. If you really want or need to clean cap/hole jewel assemblies assembled I'm not sure how successful you'll be with the regular solvents a hobbiest might use; the commercial pro cleaning solutions are definitely more effective. You can't really peg properly if it's assembled, which would normally compensate for a simpler cleaning ritual (lighter fluid etc.).

Can you post a pic of the jewel assembly?

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