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Oiling advice


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The oil is correct, I’m following Mark’s videos and using D5 and 9010. When the new pots arrive I’ll assemble the train bridge, try different amounts of oil, take it apart and see what it looks like.

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10 minutes ago, ecodec said:

The pallet arbors. No Oil here. It can and does cause drag. Rotational moment is very small so oil is not neccessary. Use oil VERY sparingly. 

 

Oh, the ESCapement. Yes, I’m following Mark’s videos and he doesn’t use any oil on the pallet pivots/jewels.


New pots will be here in a couple of days so I'll keep trying until I get it right.
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I think I know where I’m going wrong. I have the ergonomic oilers and I was about to get the standard ones as well to see how they differ and I noticed that the colours/size do not correspond.
They are in order Ergonomic/BergeonStandard/A&F

Black/Red – 0.18/0.18/0.15&0.25
Blue – 0.24/0.24/0.35
Green – 0.32/0.45/0.45
Yellow – 0.45/0.80/0.55

I was using the blue one for the pivots and you only get the oil on one side unless you turn it round and get it on the other side as well. It is a very, very small amount of oil, if I hold the oiler vertically and touch a flat surface it will not come off. So I pointed the oil towards the pivot and I presume the oil is just running down the pivot hence not being able to see the oil, pinion covered in oil and not being able to fill the pivot cup (that was for test purposes only).

I think I need a set of standard oilers for the pivots but I’ll try it with the green one before they arrive. I presume that the oil will ‘hang’ down the tip from the standard oiler and when it touches the pivot and the jewel capillary reaction will do the rest.

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3 hours ago, PeterS said:

 

I presume that the oil will ‘hang’ down the tip from the standard oiler and when it touches the pivot and the jewel capillary reaction will do the rest.

 

No, the oil will stay on the side of the oiler until you touch the pivot. If the oil is dripping off the oiler, that's way too much.  Here's a couple of YouTube videos from OSUIT that I found very helpful.

 

 

 

 

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Thanks for all the advice, it’s all very helpful.

I’ve taken some pictures to see everything better. You really do not need much oil.
The oiler is 0.24, the pivot is the centre wheel and jewels are centre and third.

1 (Copy).jpg

2 (Copy).jpg

3 (Copy).jpg

4 (Copy).jpg

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  • 3 weeks later...

I just came across a BHI document about lubrication:

“The oil sinks of the jewel holes should be about half full; there must be no oil on any other part of the jewel”

I was wondering about that because I saw a video (rather professional) and the guy also fills them up half full. Skip to 34:40

Mark recommends just enough oil between the jewel and the pivot which seems logical to me. I don’t quite understand why they should be half full, I don’t see any purpose of that but I guess the oil sinks are there for a reason.

 

 

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With experience you'll do it by feel.

One thing not mentioned above is where you dip the oiler makes a difference. Dipping at the edge  (shallow area) will pick up less oil and in the middle (deep) will pick up more. In the same vein, an oiler held vertically will pick up less oil than one held at an angle.

Oilers need to be very clean as an oily oiler wil allow the oil to creep upwards. A poke into rodico each time may seem wasteful but I find that it helps in only getting the desired amount on the oiler.

The reason most peope overoil is that they cannot see the oil. What you need to do is ensure that you have a drop of oil on the oiler before you touch the oilsink and make sure that you're accurate enough and the oil drop dissapears off the oiler. If you look at the oil sink you will see some reflection as the oil goes around the pivot but after a while you will learn to trust your actions.

If you want to check on your oiling go ahead and oil and then remove the bridge to observe the underside of the jewel. You will see a small drop of oil around the pivot hole but not touching the edges, probably about a third of the available area.

Good luck!

Anilv

 

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22 hours ago, anilv said:

The reason most people overoil is that they cannot see the oil. What you need to do is ensure that you have a drop of oil on the oiler before you touch the oilsink and make sure that you're accurate enough and the oil drop dissapears off the oiler.

Seeing the oil in the sink is a problem but I’m getting there. I got some standard Bergeon oilers and they work better for me than the ergonomic I was using before. The oil doesn’t go to the edge of the ergonomic oiler hence depositing the oil is a problem when holding it vertically touching the sink.
Whatever I’m trying to oil with the ergonomic oiler I have to angle it quite a bit to be able to deposit the oil.
Note the ‘lip’ on the ergonomic one and the oil not spreading to the edges. I’m finding them difficult to work with no matter what I oil with them. Is that how they should behave?

oil9.jpg

oil8.jpg

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The oil pot had to go back. The painted lids were shedding paint when being opened and closed, mainly around the hinges where friction occurs, ending up in the oil.

Any thoughts what I’m doing differently to Mark in his video? When he over-oils the jewel the well fills up, when I over-oil the jewel the oil goes down. I’m guessing I’m putting too little oil on the oiler and the oil goes down rather than capillary reaction forcing it to go round between the pivot and jewel.
I’ll test it when new pots arrive.

Was this original Bergeon oil cups? I had the same thing happen to the Chinese clone.

I have now ordered an original Bergeon and it would be a massive shame if the same thing will happen to this.
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12 minutes ago, Halvis said:

Was this original Bergeon oil cups? I had the same thing happen to the Chinese clone.

I have now ordered an original Bergeon and it would be a massive shame if the same thing will happen to this.

Yes I bought them from Cousins. This is what Bergeon replied to them:

It's probably the friction of the white lid material coating flaking off. Yes I can see that it could happen but frankly I don’t think it’s a big issue. After a few operations you can clean it and it’s done. We are selling a huge amount of these oil cup and never had any complains.

So they know about the issue but have no intentions to do anything about it. Cousins didn’t like the outcome and have gone back to them again. So I’m still waiting.

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Yes I bought them from Cousins. This is what Bergeon replied to them:

It's probably the friction of the white lid material coating flaking off. Yes I can see that it could happen but frankly I don’t think it’s a big issue. After a few operations you can clean it and it’s done. We are selling a huge amount of these oil cup and never had any complains.

So they know about the issue but have no intentions to do anything about it. Cousins didn’t like the outcome and have gone back to them again. So I’m still waiting.

Thats incredibly bad news. I was sure that this would not happen with the genuine article. I didn't order from Cousins and it will probably be a hassle for me to complain.

And the official answer from Bergeon is the worst. When you are a customer who has paid good money for a product that is defective, you do not want to hear "Well, we acknowledge that there is an issue with your product that renders your purchase useless, but other people have not complained, so you should be fine"
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On 6/24/2018 at 9:19 PM, PeterS said:

Sorry what is ESC area?

Scape....Escape, Pallet pivots. Now I always under oil rather than use too much, however there are various concensus of opinion on this subject. Some people do not feel satisfied or safe with little or no oil. I feel sure that the tiniest touch is all that is required in the right places. 

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16 hours ago, Halvis said:

Thats incredibly bad news. I was sure that this would not happen with the genuine article. I didn't order from Cousins and it will probably be a hassle for me to complain.

And the official answer from Bergeon is the worst. When you are a customer who has paid good money for a product that is defective, you do not want to hear "Well, we acknowledge that there is an issue with your product that renders your purchase useless, but other people have not complained, so you should be fine"

You wouldn’t be surprised if that happened with a ‘value’ product and think ‘you get what you pay for’. I’m not surprised it happened with a premium product, things happen but the fact that Bergeon is not interested to do anything about it is very disappointing. You pay good money and expect a quality product and if something goes wrong you expect good service.
I also contacted Bergeon almost a month ago about it and they didn’t respond to my message.

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8 hours ago, ecodec said:

Scape....Escape, Pallet pivots. Now I always under oil rather than use too much, however there are various concensus of opinion on this subject. Some people do not feel satisfied or safe with little or no oil. I feel sure that the tiniest touch is all that is required in the right places. 

I’m currently not using oil in the escape area. I’m only playing around with scrap movements so it is not a big issue at this moment. If I ever start servicing ‘proper’ watches I’ll look into it in more depth.

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15 hours ago, vinn3 said:

    I think this is a copy of the original steel 4 holer.  vin

I'm not sure what steel 4 holers is but I'm certain that this is Bergeon. The quality is superior. Except the paint shedding of the lids into the oil pots making it useless.

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Hi there, friends of mechanical movts,

for cleaning oil pots I use brake cleaning fluid, a mixture of different hydrocarbons. The same can be applied to clean watch parts and solve debris from aged oil, grease etc. But don’t forget to open the window :crazysmile:

Oilers: I use several of the coloured series but for the escapement I made a “special tool”. A grinded sewing needle. To concentrate very small amounts of oil I fell it is helpful to apply epilam on the tip of the needle.

Regards

oiler 1.jpg

oiler 2.jpg

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