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Mainspring winders


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35 minutes ago, jdm said:

You don't need all the sizes to match, especially for handwound where winding torque is not a major issue. Search for "mainspring formula".

Thanks! Guess I'm on my way in to watch repairer math!? Last time I was looking for a generic mainspring (for a Poljot 2614.2H), I found one that matched all the parameters close enough, except for the bridle. :(

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I find your question amusingly interesting and the answer is no it's not sufficient. Then you're missing two sets and I ha link below that shows them. Your sets that you picked have both the left and right handles. Then the missing sets only have only the right handles. Plus an entire page is missing from the catalog there's another kind of handle that came in both right and left.

The set of 17 is also interesting in that it doesn't actually have every single one they make it is missing two sizes. So the missing ones are missing because you're probably almost never going to use them but they are available. The sets that are available with only the right handles because you almost never need a left handle almost. Then the smaller set would cover the typical watches they assume you're going to run into.

Then the problem with asking is it sufficient depends upon who is answering as to their experiences and what they work on. 

Then there is other problem that come up modern versus older mainsprings for instance. Notice my reference to the missing handles above? So if you look at the description the handles are labeled for NIVAFLEX mainsprings which is basically the modern mainsprings. So in the older catalog that I have the description for the other handles is "usual mainsprings" Which basically translates to the older steel mainsprings which are typically blue. If you purchase a set incredibly old this is the type of handles you'll get. I've attached pictures below to show the differences of the handles.

So the modern Springs typically have a really tight end which needs a recessed hook on the handle. Unfortunately for older mainspring like American pocket watches this type of handle does not work at all. Much better for American pocket watches is the black handle with protruding pin. So I find when doing American pocket watches the set that I have below covers 90% of them. Also nice with the  pin It is for either direction which comes up with pocket watches.

So the only way the set would be sufficient is if it came with the other set of handles which are now in no longer available and that would include both left and right and providing money was of no object at all. Even then there probably going to be some examples of mainsprings that the set won't handle that's the other problem of watch repair there is no one perfect for everything.

https://shop.bergeon.ch/Catalogue/PDF/7023 A B C.pdf

pw-set.JPG

pw-handel.JPG

not-new.JPG

NIVAFLEX.JPG

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2 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

I find your question amusingly interesting and the answer is no it's not sufficient. Then you're missing two sets and I ha link below that shows them. Your sets that you picked have both the left and right handles. Then the missing sets only have only the right handles. Plus an entire page is missing from the catalog there's another kind of handle that came in both right and left.

The set of 17 is also interesting in that it doesn't actually have every single one they make it is missing two sizes. So the missing ones are missing because you're probably almost never going to use them but they are available. The sets that are available with only the right handles because you almost never need a left handle almost. Then the smaller set would cover the typical watches they assume you're going to run into.

Then the problem with asking is it sufficient depends upon who is answering as to their experiences and what they work on. 

Then there is other problem that come up modern versus older mainsprings for instance. Notice my reference to the missing handles above? So if you look at the description the handles are labeled for NIVAFLEX mainsprings which is basically the modern mainsprings. So in the older catalog that I have the description for the other handles is "usual mainsprings" Which basically translates to the older steel mainsprings which are typically blue. If you purchase a set incredibly old this is the type of handles you'll get. I've attached pictures below to show the differences of the handles.

So the modern Springs typically have a really tight end which needs a recessed hook on the handle. Unfortunately for older mainspring like American pocket watches this type of handle does not work at all. Much better for American pocket watches is the black handle with protruding pin. So I find when doing American pocket watches the set that I have below covers 90% of them. Also nice with the  pin It is for either direction which comes up with pocket watches.

So the only way the set would be sufficient is if it came with the other set of handles which are now in no longer available and that would include both left and right and providing money was of no object at all. Even then there probably going to be some examples of mainsprings that the set won't handle that's the other problem of watch repair there is no one perfect for everything.

https://shop.bergeon.ch/Catalogue/PDF/7023 A B C.pdf

Excellent post JohnR. I have 5 different spring winders. I have a K&D winder which is really good for the larger springs ie pocket watch springs. I also have the following a Bergeon, Master craft a K&D watch mainspring winder set & a B.Jadow 350 Mainspring winder. All have their uses my favourite being the Master craft. I have tried on many occasions to wind mainsprings in by hand with no success hence all these mainspring winders. 
PS I also have a Ollie Baker mainspring winder for my clock springs. 

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2 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

Your sets that you picked have both the left and right handles. Then the missing sets only have only the right handles. Plus an entire page is missing from the catalog there's another kind of handle that came in both right and left.

Why getting left and right, in case the wise is incorrect all one has to do is transfer in a roundel and flip it.

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Why getting left and right, in case the wise is incorrect all one has to do is transfer in a roundel and flip it.

With the master craft all springs are wound in the same direction then fitted in the same manner as fitting a new spring


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On ‎2018‎-‎06‎-‎25 at 7:26 AM, JohnR725 said:

I find your question amusingly interesting and the answer is no it's not sufficient. (---) Even then there probably going to be some examples of mainsprings that the set won't handle that's the other problem of watch repair there is no one perfect for everything.

 
 

Thanks for your exposé of this interesting and challenging topic! Reading through the many replies and comments (Thank you!) I realise my question wasn't adequately formulated, and I apologise for that. I'm a hobbyist and I'm still new to watch repairing (love it!) as I've only been doing it for a year or so, but the passion for watches and the fascination for measuring time I've had since I was a kid.

Anyway, what I'm trying to establish is if you think this smaller Bergeon set 5355 would work well, be a good match, and a good start for a majority (or a significant percentage) of the wristwatch movements that I intend to service/repair, at least in the foreseeable future? So, which movements do I intend to service in the foreseeable future? Well, that's not an easy question to answer as I haven't really thought it through yet, :huh: but I'll give it a try now.

Except for the Unitas 6497/6498, I won't be working on pocket watch movements, only wristwatch movements. Many of these will be vintage movements, but not so old that they won't be fitted with a shock assembly. A large percentage of these movements will be Vostok, Poljot, and Raketa calibres, but I eventually I also intend to work on Swiss wristwatch movements, for example, classic ETAs like the 2824 calibre, but also my grandfather's (born 1910) Ernest Borel Incastar which is a much-valued family heirloom. I'm also very fond of the Japanese Orient watches, and for the same reason that I'm so fond of the Russian watches, that is their affordability.

Well, I don't know if this has made my question any easier to answer or if it changes anything that has already been stated, but I felt that I had to try to clarify. Thank you all, and here's the picture of the Ernest Borel!29145920368_28a3c46113_o.jpg

 

Edited by VWatchie
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They are on my wants list as well and they are very expensive. You only get the right hand winders with the more basic sets. If I have this correct, you will need the right hand ones for Swiss watches and the left hand winders for watches like Seiko. Don’t take my word for it though, I think I’ve read it somewhere.

I’m contemplating buying the full set, but I’ll be happy to play around with old movements, do it by hand because it won’t matter or buy a cheap spring to replace it if I need to. If I feel that I’m skilful enough to do a good job on better watches I’ll invest in the full set at some point.

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23 minutes ago, PeterS said:

 If I have this correct, you will need the right hand ones for Swiss watches and the left hand winders for watches like Seiko.

Why getting left and right, in case the wise is incorrect all one has to do is transfer in a roundel and flip it.

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22 minutes ago, jdm said:

Why getting left and right, in case the wise is incorrect all one has to do is transfer in a roundel and flip it.

I didn’t realise you could flip it. In that case the more basic set would be good enough, buying additional sizes if required.

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1 hour ago, jdm said:

Why getting left and right, in case the wise is incorrect all one has to do is transfer in a roundel and flip it.

This definitely sounds like the obvious thing to do and would save a lot of money, but where can we get the roundels? Searching eBay for "mainspring roundels" didn't come up with anything. So far I only have roundels for my three Unitas 6497/6498 movements which I got when I bought spares from Cousins. I guess I could buy spare mainsprings having the right diameter but the diameter info doesn't seem to be available (springs and barrels). I would assume experienced watch repairers to have "a ton" of them!?

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8 minutes ago, VWatchie said:

This definitely sounds like the obvious thing to do and would save a lot of money, but where can we get the roundels?

At the hardware store. And then drill to make of the right inner diameter. Or drill any metal piece that you like. It doesn't even need to be round outside, or the very exact diameter inside. Just a little bit smaller than the destination barrel.

Ingenuity beats big budgets and extensive tools sets, every single time. 

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2 minutes ago, jdm said:

At the hardware store. And then drill to make of the right inner diameter. Or drill any metal piece that you like.

Ingenuity beats big budgets and extensive tools sets, every single time. 

When can I borrow your metal drill and other required equipment? ;)

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Just now, VWatchie said:

When can I borrow your metal drill and other required equipment? ;)

You don't need a "metal drill" just an home use one. They start at euro 20? Drill bits are 1 or 2 euro each. Or use use a round file and develop manual skills. If you don't have these tools at home get them and I guarantee they will do good for watches and everything else at home.

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6 minutes ago, jdm said:

You don't need a "metal drill" just an home use one. They start at euro 20? Drill bits are 1 or 2 euro each. Or use use a round file and develop manual skills. If you don't have these tools at home get them and I guarantee they will do good for watches and everything else at home.

3

Thanks, I'll consider it an option! I would, of course, need a steady vice too, but I would assume they aren't that expensive. I'll look into it.

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5 hours ago, VWatchie said:

I realise my question wasn't adequately formulated, and I apologise for that. I'm a hobbyist and I'm still new to watch repairing (love it!) as I've only been doing it for a year or so, but the passion for watches and the fascination for measuring time I've had since I was a kid.

Never apologize for asking a question we are all learning here.

Did you notice when you read through all the answers that there were no absolutes? It's the problem with watch repair even if you had all the tools above they may not be adequate for every single situation. Which is not entirely a helpful answer for your question.

So if money is no object definitely buy it. The problem with starting watch repair is/and for all of us it's expensive to acquire every single tool so this usually means you have to compromise with, what do I need now to solve the problem. Or just really lucky purchases over time.

So if you're doing modern Swiss wristwatches you may not need a mainspring Winder at all because you purchase a new spring shove it in and that's the end of it. But either because you can't conveniently get a spring or the old spring looks acceptable then having some way to get it in other than the struggle of winding it in by hand would be nice.

Then before I spiral off into the mystery of winders from Bergeon You might want to look at the basic set 2729 Right handles only.

Then the other option is individuals but that brings up a problem and a mystery. To understand the mystery the first link is nice because everything is pictured you can see the numbers the descriptions and there's a second page. So all the bits and pieces are there all 17 sizes individually can be purchased plus additional ones specifically for ETA and Rolex. There is even a set specific for ETA and because they have specific part numbers I'm assuming that they're not the same as what's found in the standard set there's a difference somehow. Then a Winder for your Swiss pocket watch I assume you mean the older version that runs at 18,000 because there are two specific winders to correspond to the two versions of this watch.

 

http://www.julesborel.com/products/tools-mainspring-tools-mainspring-winders

http://www.julesborel.com/products/tools-mainspring-tools-mainspring-winders/bergeon-2795-eta-assortment-of-12-mainspring-winders-for-calibre-eta

http://www.julesborel.com/products/tools-mainspring-tools-mainspring-winders/bergeon-mainspring-winder-eta6497-98-2

https://www.cousinsuk.com/product/watch-bergeon-2795eta

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3 hours ago, VWatchie said:

This definitely sounds like the obvious thing to do and would save a lot of money, but where can we get the roundels? Searching eBay for "mainspring roundels" didn't come up with anything. So far I only have roundels for my three Unitas 6497/6498 movements which I got when I bought spares from Cousins. I guess I could buy spare mainsprings having the right diameter but the diameter info doesn't seem to be available (springs and barrels). I would assume experienced watch repairers to have "a ton" of them!?

To help clarify a little, the roundels that @jdm refers to might also be called washers, the sort that would you find with the nuts and bolts and other fixings at an iron mongers or hardware store.

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  • 2 weeks later...
On ‎6‎/‎24‎/‎2018 at 8:47 PM, clockboy said:

I have the Bergeon Winder 1/2 set but had to modify it to work. i found the hole that accepts the spring when winding galas too small. However if you see a Master craft winder I recommend you purchase.  See pics to see how it works.\

A set is now on auction on eBay! Despite your illustrations I really can't say that I fully understand how it works. Nevertheless, I'm sure I'd be able to figure it out (I have an idea). Anyway, what I don't understand is if these winders are variable or fixed in diameter? If fixed, what are the sizes? Sorry if my questions seem uninitiated. :unsure: As I've already stated, I'm still pretty new to this. Thanks!!!

Oh BTW, what would be a fair price?

Edited by VWatchie
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  • 5 weeks later...

Hello all!

I have been struggling with the matter of mainspring winders for a while and I want to share some of my experience with Bergeon mainspring winders.

First, there two major types:

the old ones, with a spoke on the arbor (30081):

spike.thumb.JPG.deebaa0e57c087fb986d6b42509b90b9.JPG

and the newer ones with a recess on the arbor (Nivarox):

recess.thumb.JPG.28770684456fcfca077079955db2e3ff.JPG

2795_1.thumb.jpg.32f94346e6e30bdbf559683b64f709e8.jpg

Side by side #6:

1604444423_spikevsrecess.thumb.JPG.e2bb9862aa78bb775315c6e3f3dabe69.JPG

 

to be continued...

tabel.JPG

2795_2.jpg

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The above are the two major types. From the second type, the Nivarox one, specialized winders emerged, meaning a specific winder for a specific caliber (ETA, Rolex).

From what I learned so far, the barrel and arbor diameters of both 30081 and nivarox sets are the same. The difference is that for the older type, with the hook, one would need to stretch the inner coil of the mainspring for it to accept the hook - when the second one, the Nivarox, don't - the Mainspring just fells in the recess and accepts the little hook in there. 

So with the second set you can work on mainsprings with lower inner coil diameters.

But of course, the newer calibers have smaller-diameter mainspring arbors...

to be continued...

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So for a watch enthusiast, working on a modern day 2824, 2892, 7750 is quite exciting. And you get to the point when you want excelence, so you start investing in tools. At some point you hear about Mainspring winders - used in professional environments - and you start drooling (considering the costs). So you start hunting for mainspring winders. First you win some bids on the older Bergeon style and some no-name-Bergeon-style winders. But you realise it's not enough, because there are about 17 sizes and you only have about the 6 smaller ones and few others - you are missing quite a few. Then you realize the difference between the newer ones and the older ones...

Then you decide to brake the piggy-bank and bid on the Nivarox 2795 17 sizes. And you win. And it arrives and you test it on your currently-opened-on-the-bench 2824. And the arbor is too big - you miss-shape the inner-coil  - you almoast have a stroke... :)))

So you start obsessing about them - you see that there are some Bergeon winders specifically for ETA - but you don't have the dough now... 

So you start obsessing about what to do to make them work...

 

to be continued...

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I will speak for the 2824 but the principle applyes to other calibers also.

for the 2824 you need the winder #7 - which has the exterior barrel of 10.8mm. AND you need the arbor to be about 2.5mm in diameter. But in the Nivarox set, the #7 piece has an arbour of 3.5mm.

**As a side note, in the 2795 Nivarox, as you also can see in the table above, there are two identical arbors for each two consecutive barrels. For example the arbors for #3 and #4 is 2.5mm. The arbors for #7 and #8 is 3.5mm. This is important, because you can mess with one of them (wait for it) without risking absolute failure.

So you need a 2.5mm arbor on a 10.8mm barrel for a 2824. So you take the #4 arbor and put it in the #7 barrel.

first problem: there is quite a gap between the 2.5mm arbor and the 3.5mm barrel sot the arbor willform an angle with the barrel.\the second problem: the disc on the #4 arbor is way smaller then the #7 barrel. And with the help of the first problem - the mainspring willescape through that gap.

 

So, ... to be continued...

 

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For the first problem I searched the internet and found brass pipes of 0.5mm increment with 0.22mm wall thickness (!).

bucsa.thumb.JPG.2cbe5af84b992b818ece922ce0820d1d.JPG

 

And I made some sort of bushes to fit the barrels:

bucsa_.thumb.JPG.f8a6600dec1be21ea5c0f16e10c83a89.JPG

For the #7 barrel I would need the 2.5mm-interior/3mm-exterior and the 3mm-interior/3.5mm-exterior:

bucsa_2.thumb.JPG.7f13934c9596aab1c4ed86e1151229e6.JPG

bucsa_3.thumb.JPG.c5417de2f17722f3affd2a88d7cd8da1.JPG

 

 

to be continued...

Edited by matabog
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