Jump to content

Sticky hairspring; how to demag and what does the hs alloy do?


Recommended Posts

Hi all,

 

Continuing on the tank watch with split stem I posted recently over.

 

Got the movement cleaned and assembled. Tricky balance to get in place as the hs runs underneith the train wheels.

 

Realize I have a very sticky hs that finds all ways to short turns and run fast.

 

I note that the hs material is kind of unusual to me; it’s very ”springy” and not at all softish like most I have encountered. And the colour is bluish in a way I haven’t seen in hs before. I may have seen something like it in a pocket watch but not sure.

 

Anyhow...try to demag several times in various ways; in the movement, as balance only, with the coil stretched out so that turns are ”isolated”.

 

Don’t have much success, the stickyness remains whatever I do.

 

I ”think” I have been able to manually separate the turns right now as the movement runs decently and respond to my tuning. But I bet it won’t be long wearing needed before a small hit will cause turns to short again....

 

I would be really interested in hearing peoples experience from these matters; eficcient way to demag and what does the hs alloy mean in this context?

 

There’s a photo attached.1a247677744cf8997be13ced30c65694.jpg

 

/Bsoderling

 

 

 

 

 

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Do the HS threads stick to each other like magnets or because they are dirt or something ?

Have you noticed any gunk or lube on the threads ? Does the watch run very fast ? (that's how you usually tell that the HS is magnetized)

Have you tried the compass trick ?

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Here is an interesting link about the balance and hairsprings.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balance_spring

 

The tools you use could also be magnetised. If so, they will need to be de-magnetised. You can buy screwdrivers with anti-magnetic blades. Tweezers can also be bought that are anti-magnetic.

Here is a link to a very popular demagnetizer. Prices very.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/i/282921089480?chn=ps&adgroupid=55998136510&rlsatarget=pla-411376091496&abcId=1133946&adtype=pla&merchantid=115499868&poi=&googleloc=1007216&device=c&campaignid=1058845087&crdt=0

 

 

Hairsprings are very fragile they need to be treated with extreme care. I always used Ronsonol lighter fluid for cleaning. Put some in a small pot, you will need one with a screw top as it evaporates very quickly. Take out after a few minutes, put on clean tissue paper and use you blower to dry.  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

When you use a degauss tool, it's important to move the object away from it slowly and to a sufficient distance. The degaussing tool generates a strong alternating magnetic field - when you switch it off that field is unlikely to be zero - which would mean your screwdriver or spring would remain magnetized. By moving the object away slowly you allow the field strength at the object to slowly drop to zero.

hysterysisCurve.jpg.673a1adfe233fadb6580bfecbc08740e.jpg

You start on the outside of this graph and by pulling away from the degaussing tool you move the item to be demagnetized to the centre of the graph.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Sure it's dirt or magnetic hairspring? that bend there looks wrong? should go straight out from the stud. Not a loop like it is now. That is making it go out after the regulator and then sticking together on the other side. imageproxy_LI.thumb.jpg.fe96a9c2f431852698911b80bc9a8c86.jpg

Edited by rogart63
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hi guys and thanks for all the very relevant feedback.

Comments:

- I have repeatedly cleaned the entire balance in zippo-equivalent so that should be ok.

- Having worked in electronics, I decided to build my own de-gausser from a transformer. The cool thing with the device is that the winding I use has an over current protection that ramps down the current as the component gets warm and thereby ramps down the field, giving the same effect as physically moving the part away. Should work and have done so with my tools so far, but I will pay some more attention here.

- coil shape. Thanks for pointing that out. Doesn’t help to keep turns separated if there’s a bad start. I have tried to reshape that part and again note that the material is not the one I’m used to as it’s really resistant and wants to maintain the shape it’s in.

I think my next step will be to disassemble the train parts to enable better access to the balance an hs as it’s very tight as it is and just getting the balance in/out is a tricky thing.

Hopefully this will make it easier to study what’s going on with the hs.

I have attached a bottom up photo of the balance assembly as it is now. Not perfect but I have seen a lot worse.

c4dd63ba0523c839109147cbf93f95fc.jpg


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The underside of the balance cock has a lot of bad damage. Are you sure the end shake is correct when it’s screwed down. What is the angle like? Is it straight. What does it sound like when it is ticking at different angles.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hi guys and thanks for all the very relevant feedback.

Comments:

- I have repeatedly cleaned the entire balance in zippo-equivalent so that should be ok.

- Having worked in electronics, I decided to build my own de-gausser from a transformer. The cool thing with the device is that the winding I use has an over current protection that ramps down the current as the component gets warm and thereby ramps down the field, giving the same effect as physically moving the part away. Should work and have done so with my tools so far, but I will pay some more attention here.

- coil shape. Thanks for pointing that out. Doesn’t help to keep turns separated if there’s a bad start. I have tried to reshape that part and again note that the material is not the one I’m used to as it’s really resistant and wants to maintain the shape it’s in.

I think my next step will be to disassemble the train parts to enable better access to the balance an hs as it’s very tight as it is and just getting the balance in/out is a tricky thing.

Hopefully this will make it easier to study what’s going on with the hs.

I have attached a bottom up photo of the balance assembly as it is now. Not perfect but I have seen a lot worse.

c4dd63ba0523c839109147cbf93f95fc.jpg&key=c4a59b91f77b777b18bf4612d642f619c5bfc8a61d973553307e0227b9d4643e


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

HS looks pretty good by my standards. I’d be happy if that was one of my HS restorations. Hair springs are my nemesis. ????


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Looks okay to me. But when i have some trouble with sticky hairspring. I sometimes clean it i acetone . Just a quick rinse will do. Or use a brush and then naptha . As the naptha doesn't remove the old oil properly. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

There is clearly something fishy going on with the magnetic properties here...

I dismounted the balance wheel from the cock and placed it on the table, hs up. When lifting the hs slowly by the stud I can see that each turn of the hs edge wants to ”stick” to the balance wheel spokes.

Isn’t that extremely weird and indicating strong magnetic forces in play...?

And when I demag the thing, it really ”rattles around” when the demag field is live in a way I haven’t noted with any other watch part.

I have noted this behavior with heavily magnetized tools and the effect is usually reduced with repeated demag cycles.

Strange....




Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Crap....

Starting out with my plan as per recent post and...suddenly the balance wheel comes loose and it’s the hs that broke off right at the stud. That has never happened to me before.

So I guess I’ll never know what was the trouble.

Looking positively at things, this leads me to another for me so far unanswered question.

Hairsprings...how individual are they?

Can I fit a hs from another movement (18000 rate obviously) with reasonably same diameter and a stud that fits the balance cock and goes onto the balance staff ?

I have done several balance staff swaps so I shouldn’t have a problem with the practicalities.

I don’t see a lot of hs being offered as wrist watch movement spare parts, so I guess there’s a catch somewhere?

Rogart63, on the spare parts side, I believe you hinted at the movement to be an FEF or maybe FHF. I was a bit confused there as the watchuseek thread talked about a MLT 312.

If you have any additional comments, I would appreciate it.

Grateful for everyones continued help and support.77371a31e1b392600fd081abdf97161d.jpg





Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Link to comment
Share on other sites

An almost broken hs can cause all sorts of unexpected behaviour.  Before going hunting for a new hs, you should try repinning this one as close as you can to where it broke. If you can do this carefully you should still be able to adjust the timing by moving the regulator to the slow end. You can, if necessary, tweak the mean time screws on the balance (the ones closest to the arm) 1/4 to 1/2 a turn out to compensate for this. You must remove the balance form the watch to do this or you risk breaking pivots, and you must adjust equally on each side.

You will need to remove the hs from the balance and reform the terminal curve so the collet is centred over the jewel hole and the regulator pin / boot moves freely round the full range of adjustment without moving the spring off centre.  There is a special tool for holding the stud, but your balance cock here will suffice. You may want to move the stud down a ting fraction to help in pinning the spring perpendicular to the stud. You should be able to re-use the old pin.

You will find some info on all this here... http://raulhorology.com/2012/12/the-mark-of-a-true-watchmaker-forming-hairsprings-part-4-pinning-to-the-stud-final-adjustments/

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hi Stuart,

Should have thought of this... a 1-2 mm (or so) shortening of the hs shouldnt alter the timing much and be well possible to compensate for.

It’s probably subconciuos, want to stay away from that hs pinning operation that I know will cause me headache. Have lost pins before. This time I’ll cover it all up in plastic wrap before I start :-)

The raulhorology pages are really interesting and offer a lot of deep insight.

Will see how things progress but hopefully not a at a dead end yet.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Link to comment
Share on other sites

9 hours ago, anilv said:

Be careful with acetone... I believe this dissolves shellac and you may find your roller jewel coming loose. Unnecessary hassle.

rgds

Anilv

It does. But have helped me a few times when i couldn't get the hairspring clean enough with naptha. I use a brush and clean only the hairspring . Or a quick bath in acetone followed by blowing it dry. Everything should be used with caution.

Edited by rogart63
Link to comment
Share on other sites

This is WAY above my pay grade but I appreciate it!

 

I also like the link to Raul Horology. I enjoy absorbing this info even if I have no plans to get that deep. Knowing the implications of other actions can help me make smarter decisions in other areas of a project.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

So far so good... got the hs pinned back in the stud and the collet reasonably centered after a bit of tweaking.

Found that holding the pin with a piece of rodico was a lot safer than using a pincette. I hate that ”ping” sound I hear when realizing I held the part too hard and it’s off to some distant place.

Still plenty of opportunity to blow this completely so time for a break [emoji3]

f2ea8dfb2bb9923033c9257025a2983f.jpg




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Great stuff, well done - that looks close enough to me! I’m sure others might strive for better, but I would be with you... take a break and then move on to the next stage.

The terminal curve does look a little grubby. Do you have a high powered loupe or microscope? Are there maybe some traces of rust on it? Anyhow, whilst you have it off the balance you can give it a good soak to make sure it’s absolutely clean.

Meanwhile, if things go horribly wrong, looks like Jules Borel may have a balance complete but it’s $41 and it doesn’t say if it’s shockprook or plain

Link to comment
Share on other sites

13 hours ago, bsoderling said:


Still plenty of opportunity to blow this completely so time for a break emoji3.png

 

This is the most difficult thing to teach. When you have a critical job to do, step away and come back to it when you're rested and fresh.

There have been many occasions when I have been trying to do a fiddly task and getting frustrated. Coming back to it fresh on another day and it goes well 1st time!

Anilv

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I reckon that hairspring possibly isn’t original, so I wouldn’t sweat too much. 

Demagnetising shouldn’t be too difficult. Do it in two different planes, and make sure it slowly ramps down in intensity (as you mention). If it’s still magnetised then try another demagnetiser. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hi and thanks for the supportive chatter. Makes this hobby so much more rewarding.

Right now the hs seems pretty demagnetized, can’t see any sticking tendencies as it lies on the table.

And I agree, this is most likely not the original hs. There are too many signs of tampering with the stud pin etc. for that to be the case.

Will definitely give it another clean before assembly, it does look grubby towards the stud.

Rogart63, I think you are correct pointing towards FEF 130+. The bridge design differs slightly but the key less stuff appears identical and from what I hear that’s the true identifier.

I found a supplier with a FEF 130 hs in stock for decent money and may go for that if this one doesn’t work out.

Will be away next week, so if I appear quiet, that’s why.






Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Some progress...cleaned the hs and balance wheel separately, pushed the collet back on the staff and assembled it all.

And it runs... but fast (as expected with a shorter hs).

Beat error 250, not too bad in my book.

But...

Slow position: + 280 sec
Mid position: + 300 sec
Fast position: +530 sec

All stable and no sticking visible.

I guess I’m going to have to work on those timing screws a bit. Considering the offset I measure, are the recommendations for adjustment still valid?




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Link to comment
Share on other sites



×
×
  • Create New...