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Low amplitude on 70s Waltham


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Hi All

I'm a beginner.  This is a Waltham windup I bought for practicing.  I disassembled, cleaned and oiled it with mobeius 8000/4 which the supply house said is ok for practice pieces.  I never oiled a watch before and I was careful to not overdo it. I didn't oil the pallet stones.  I did nothing with the mainspring since I don't have a winder yet. I ran it over the demagnetizer.

You can see that the amplitude is low.  I just got the timegrapher so I don't know what it was before I go into it. There is detectable balance staff end shake.

Would a mainspring replacement be next for trouble shooting?

Thank you for any guidance!

Charlie

 

 

 

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First of all you need to adjust the beat error. That is to high.  That you adjust with the upper arm or regulator. As close to 0.0 as you can get. 0,0-0,5 is okay.  Then adjust the other arm more up .  Maybe you could clean the mainspring inside the barrel at least. And a few drops of 8200 on the mainspring. That is far better then running it dry. 

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Rogart’s advice is always good, but I don’t agree entirely about worrying about the beat error at the moment - I’m almost positive that’s not your problem. 

I suspect you could possibly have either a dirty hairspring, or a slightly bent hairspring which is causing the coils to touch or stick together. This causes an increased rate (you currently have +400s/day), but I also see that your regulator arm is set to gain. Can you move the regulator arm so that it is in line with the middle of the + / - index marks?

If it still runs fast with the regular centralised, then give the balance (and balance cock) a bath in essence (or naphtha / lighter fluid if you don’t have essence). Use a blower to get rid of the excess as soon as you remove, as the essence may leave a small amount of residue and can still lead to a sticky hairspring. 

 

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It is the escape area of the watch that will need closer inspection. Changing the mainspring will have no effect. Thoroughly clean the hairspring and escape with a de-greaser. Inspect using a strong loupe, checking that there are no kinks in the hairspring and check that the pallets are not loose. Then lubricate the jewels with 9010. Finally de-magnise the movement.

With the huge gain showing I suspect the hairspring is the culprit.

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  I didn't oil the pallet stones. You should a very tiny drop on the pallet stones. if your not comfortable with this then a tiny spot on a few teeth of the escapement wheel. Be extremely careful. I do not recommend this way.  

 

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Consult the free BHI lubrication guide if you are not sure. It’s worth pointing out that you should usually get “reasonable” amplitude even with the watch unlubricated but clean. 

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3 hours ago, rodabod said:

It’s worth pointing out that you should usually get “reasonable” amplitude even with the watch unlubricated but clean. 

Absolutely. So the problem is with the the balance/escapement, like bent pivots, cracked jewels, pallet fork, etc.

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Thanks for the guidance.  It this point I can only dis/reassemble a watch.  

The with the balance removed the pallet fork does snap to the guide pins when brushed with an oiler.  Below are some close ups.

I made this video with the pallet removed and a puff of air on the balance.  

Again, thanks for any help!

Charlie

 

 

 

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Looks like I'm in a disagreeable mood this morning. We need a sideways picture of the balance wheel and hairspring in the watch. Visually looking down the hairspring looks fine. The timing machine does not look fine and because we really can't see a clear.pattern I tend to assume that the numbers are wrong. There is a little bit of a pattern but. Basically if we can't visually see on the timing machine graphically what's going on timing machine numerically isn't going to be right either.

Then I'm attaching an image it's fuzzy it be nice if it was sharp. If the balance is back in the watch see if you get a sideways view of this because it doesn't quite look right when it's fuzzy.

Then the other thing that would be helpful it is who made the watch and it was definitely not made by Waltham . Did you notice there are numbers and letters under the balance wheel? A picture that would be nice. Currently I can only see bits and pieces that will tell us who made the movement.

Then for the problem of being out of beat the numbers on the timing machine are worthless but visually looking at the watch it looks like it's out of beat as a guess. That's because usually the stud is in a certain location and yours is not. So to visually put it back it be nice to know where your pallet fork is in the watch.

 

 

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The movement is labeled SGT 100 E4.  

Here are more pics of the hairspring and regulator.  Hard to get the iphone to focus with the macro lens.

Burnishing is beyond me:(

Thank you all!

 

 

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The usual source for movement information didn't have the movement but the link below did and I borrowed a picture.

So if you look at the image attached notice where the stud the regulator are versus where yours are? So put the stud and regulator in a position similar to the picture that should put you reasonably close.

Then problem where having is where diagnosing from your pictures if they're not crystal clear which they're not we are going to make incorrect diagnostics. So I can't quite tell if your regulator pin is where it's supposed to be. So the second link Has nice pictures of how it should look. The pin should be parallel to the boot the hairspring should move between those it shouldn't be grabbed. And in your picture the fuzzy picture it almost looks like the pin was bent out just can't tell on the rest of the pictures.

Then hairspring pictures with the exception of one look okay but that wasn't what I was looking for. So visually you need to look in and look at the hairspring it should be flat. It shouldn't be bent up or down bumping into anything that is not supposed to because that would give you the extra noise on the timing machine.

 

https://uhrforum.de/betina-date-swiss-made-edelstahl-mit-sgt-100-fe-140c-handaufzug-t113405

https://www.watchrepairtalk.com/topic/7860-how-to-remove-hairspring-from-regulator-arm-vostok-24xx/

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1 hour ago, Lc130 said:

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It may just be the photo angle, but that hairspring doesn’t look flat to me there: is the regulator boot causing it to twist maybe?

Also, the spacing between your hairspring coils also looks a bit uneven on one of your photos around the area highlighted in red (attached). You you look at this area of the hairspring under a loupe while it is running to see if the coils touch each other?

 

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9 hours ago, GeorgeC said:

I don’t see any hairspring stud screw in the photos, is it missing?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Now that you mention it, yes it is missing.  I hadn't noticed. Thank you.

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13 hours ago, Lc130 said:

I'm the OP.  I now recall that I lost the spring highlighted below.  Would this cause the low amplitude? 

Thank you

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No . But could make it difficult to set the time if you don't have that spring. Cool that the intermediate wheel has a jewel. Don't think i have seen that before. 

Edited by rogart63
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The movement is labeled SGT 100 E4.  
Here are more pics of the hairspring and regulator.  Hard to get the iphone to focus with the macro lens.
Burnishing is beyond me:(
Thank you all!
 
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Is the end jewel correctly oriented? Should be flat side down (contacting pivot). The video looks like jewel is fitted with flat side up.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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