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Waltham 1892 Vanguard, can it be salvage ?


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Hi everyone,

I have a Waltham 1892 23 jewels grade Vanguard i bought some years ago (not my best deal !) which have an impressive list of defaults :

  • Ratchet wheel and crown wheel has been ruined (i believe the guy thought it was a good idea to remove rust spots with a file)
  • Not sure the click is complete
  • Missing center wheel lower jewel
  • Pallet arbor looks not original and is broken
  • Missing lower pallet chaton and screws
  • Third wheel upper jewel broken
  • Fourth wheel upper jewel broken
  • Pallet upper jewel broken
  • balance lower cap jewel broken
  • balance lower jewel broken
  • balance upper cap jewel missing
  • balance upper cap jewel broken
  • The case is a piece of junk

The good parts :

  • The balance is ok except the jewels
  • The dial and hands are ok
  • The wheels look ok
  • The setting parts look ok

On the other hand i have a W 1892 21 jewels which look ok except :

  • The balance has been fully taken apart, looks  like the guy start replacing the staff but didn't finish the job. The staff is OK.
  • The upper balance jewel and cap jewel and screws are missing
  • No dial and hands

So, my first idea was to used the 21 to restore the 23 but after checking all of the problems i am not very confident, my big concerns are the missing center jewel, the missing chaton and all of the jewel jobs.  I am afraid that this end by ruining the 21 without successfully restore the 23.

The second option is to restore the 21 using the 23 which can be done by fixing the missing upper cap jewel, replacing the broken upper jewel and reusing the dial and hands of the 23.

Third option is to put back all that stuff in my bench drawer and forgot about it .

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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With all the problems the 23J has, I'd definitely  work to make the 21J whole and running. I have a couple of '92's that are in need of work, but not that much work. Do you have nice cases for them? If not, the market for fairly common American pocket watches is pretty soft. And with naked movements it's even worse.

The hunter '92's are generally more valuable, as well as those marked "Non-Magnetic" and "*Ruby Jewels". Good luck.

 

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Both are open face and i don't have a correct case, from the point of view of value the Vanguard is much more valuable and i could invest in a case. The 21 is a 845 grade. Just found that the 21 has also the fourth wheel arbor broken, one more problem to fix.

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5 hours ago, syfre said:

 Just found that the 21 has also the fourth wheel arbor broken, one more problem to fix.

As beautiful as the '92 models are, being full-plate movements they do seem to get messed up by people taking them apart before they understand the pitfalls. Years ago I may have broken a pallet arbor on a 21J Crescent St. because I didn't know about the danger posed by the potance. Then, of course, there are a few different types of arbor to confuse the issue of servicing. Again, beautiful watches but best to buy them running well, IMHO. Unless you're are a proficient watchmaker, of course.

I suppose the Vanguard may be a bit more valuable than the 845, but I doubt it's that much of a difference. I'm guessing that there were a lot fewer 845's than Vanguards. But, as most of us know, rarity doesn't always equal higher value. Best of luck with your repairs. Cheers.

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21 hours ago, syfre said:

According to pwdb it's about $530 vs $285;  so yes the it's far much valuable

Those are pretty generous prices for today's market. Real-world contemporary prices would seem to be, if we're talking naked movements in mint condition, might be $250 for Vanguard and $150 for the 845. Check out "Sold" Ebay auctions and you'll see something closer to real world prices. So yes, the Vanguard does have considerably more market value. All other things being equal, which they sound like they're not, repairing the 23J would be the way to go.

You might head over to the NAWCC message board and find out which parts are actually directly interchangeable between the models. There are a few folks there who specialize in the 1892 models. I hope you get them both up and running eventually. Cheers.

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