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Running slow....


p2n

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I've had several non runners from fleabay and after a strip/clean/fix they all work but they all run slow (-200s/d or more).

Assuming it's me and not the movements or a coincidence, what could I be doing wrong?

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3 minutes ago, p2n said:

I've had several non runners from fleabay and after a strip/clean/fix they all work but they all run slow (-200s/d or more).

Assuming it's me and not the movements or a coincidence, what could I be doing wrong?

Please post a timegrapher picture from one or more of these.

If you don't have a timing machine, or equivalent machine, get one.

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One is the Ingersol-Trenton I've posted about elsewhere:

DD.PNG.225a78874554feb7178949f0152ba780.PNG

 

My mic setup is a little off so it's a bit noisy.

I've also got a Zentra that's just been reassembled and loosing about 40 mins a day. And a small Elgin. No traces of those yet as my mic/watch holder is being rebuild.

It just seemed odd they they are all slow and I wondered if there was something I was doing or not doing. Is this indicative of not being cleaned properly? Damage to the hairspring - I wondered if my cleaning solution (sea-foam) was damaging them? etc

 

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Yes - the old favourite W-O-S. Not calibrated, but it matches observations. I set the watch using NTP sync'd PC and check again in 24 hours. Loosing 4 to 5 mins a day depending on position. The Zentra is now 40 mins slow from when I set it last night so no need to split second accuracy measuring that one lol.

 

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On the Ingersoll - at max. Midpoint to max gains about 100s/d but even at max it's still -200.

Could there be something generally that I'm doing wrong to cause this issue, rather than specific faults with the movements?

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It's an interesting question you're asking why are you assuming it's you and not the watch?

The problem with purchasing non-running watches off of eBay and I assume they were not running is we do not know what the condition they are in at least as far as timekeeping goes. If you're really concerned that you are at fault find a watch similar to what you're working on make sure it's keeping time before you service it. Then after servicing see if it's running slow.

Then as you're describing several watches we really should look at each one individually.

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59 minutes ago, anilv said:

Too heavy oil? Also did you oil the pallet fork pivot?

It's described as "watch oil" so should be ok for pocket watches? Might of oiled the pallet fork bearings... :$

8 minutes ago, JohnR725 said:

why are you assuming it's you and not the watch?

Because it's really easy to always blame the watch (or the tools) and in doing so miss something I'm doing. I'm really new to this (2 months) and I know I'm probably still making mistakes. I want to try and find and fix them as quick as I can.

 

5 minutes ago, JohnR725 said:

find a watch similar to what you're working on make sure it's keeping time before you service it. Then after servicing see if it's running slow.

That's a good idea. I did buy a good condition working mechanism when I started all this a month or two ago. I was planning just to put it in a case (the one my Ingersoll-Trenton came in) but decided not to (sticking with the original slow running movement). I've put that on Watch-O-Scope | PCTiming Machine | TG software already and it's pretty good (under 10 s/d) the I'll "service" that and see what happens.

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8 minutes ago, p2n said:

"watch oil"

Do you want to describe your watch oil? The reason I ask this question this came up recently. Somebody was using a universal watch oil anchor brand it's very popular because of the price. Unfortunately even at the bargain price it was not a wise investment the lubrication has interesting properties like turning to glue really fast.

 

 

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Interesting. I'll get some other oil.

I don't think that's the problem in my case since the watch was slow immediately after service and has remained slow - it's not got any worse either.

I'll strip clean and re-oil as soon as I get some better oil and see what happens.

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Then you do realize you need more than one lubrication when working on watches don't you?

Ideally when starting watch repair you start with the junk movement no expectations of it running just practice taking apart and putting together until you get your hand eye coordination down where the amount of pivots that accidentally falls off drops considerably. Then when you're going for a full-service you should start with something like a 6498, 6497 or ST36 which is the Chinese equivalent. Preferably purchased new in other words in known condition. You could run it across your timing machine or timing app verify its condition. Then service that. Then if it's not right afterwords you know It is something that you did.

Then for a generalization don't assume cleaning fixes everything. There was a time where usually with pocket watches that cleaning would fix things. That's because the lubrication's used are organic typically when they went bad they just stop the watch. But that was a long time ago modern lubricants don't necessarily go bad that way they usually just quit lubricating. Then add in a little condensation rust forms it's a great grinding compound. Or think about a pocket watch that's 100 years old how many times do you think it's been serviced? How many owners have had it conceivably it's just worn out. It's one of the problems now with eBay thinking you're going get up nice watch and just clean it and make it go that might happen more likely repairs will be required and each and every watch is different.

 

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18 hours ago, anilv said:

I would take the mainspring out of the barrel and have a look at it. Best to change for new one .. otherwise you'll be chasing smoke!

On 4/18/2018 at 9:05 AM, p2n said:

I've had several non runners from fleabay and after a strip/clean/fix they all work but they all run slow (-200s/d or more)

I was being reminded of something in the first quote above. When we look at the second quote which is Part of the original question might be easy to assume that when you strip/clean/fix that you actually did the right thing? Because if you did all of those things correctly we wouldn't be having this discussion of all?

So the order in which you have things Strip/clean/Fix isn't exactly in the right order. So traditionally would be to evaluate, repair and once all the repairs are done cleaning reassembly & lubrication then final timekeeping.

 

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On a couple of movements the main spring was broken so it was a strip and clean then fix (replace) the mainspring and reassemble. On another movement it was only the clicker retaining screw that was what appeared to be corroded off (resulting in the clicker slipping). I had to strip the watch to get the stub of the click spring screw out and while apart I cleaned it. So while I say strip/clean/fix I don't always mean in that exact order. Sometimes ist's more like: determine the problem, order wrong part, order correct part, fit, strip, clean, rebuild, spend two hours hunting under the table for that bloody spring, clean again, rebuild.... etc. I'm new to this!

It might just be that I've had a run of slow movements, but I posted the question to see if this was a recognisable problem that had a common issue that beginners run into. (In the same way that leverage catches on a wood lathe are a common thing with beginners and have a common cause and solution)

A very small vial of Moebius 8000 arrived today. I know you really need a dozen different ones, but I've already spent too much so I'm having to pick a "general purpose" oil. Did they really have 20 different oils 130 years ago?

I'm going to go back to the Pinnacle movement and rework that as soon as I get my new timing machine microphone setup made. I'll take readings before and after the process. I'm tempted to try and video it as well...

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20 minutes ago, p2n said:

On a couple of movements the main spring was broken so it was a strip and clean then fix (replace) the mainspring and reassemble. On another movement it was only the clicker retaining screw that was what appeared to be corroded off (resulting in the clicker slipping). I had to strip the watch to get the stub of the click spring screw out and while apart I cleaned it. So while I say strip/clean/fix I don't always mean in that exact order. Sometimes ist's more like: determine the problem, order wrong part, order correct part, fit, strip, clean, rebuild, spend two hours hunting under the table for that bloody spring, clean again, rebuild.... etc. I'm new to this!

It might just be that I've had a run of slow movements, but I posted the question to see if this was a recognisable problem that had a common issue that beginners run into. (In the same way that leverage catches on a wood lathe are a common thing with beginners and have a common cause and solution)

A very small vial of Moebius 8000 arrived today. I know you really need a dozen different ones, but I've already spent too much so I'm having to pick a "general purpose" oil. Did they really have 20 different oils 130 years ago?

I'm going to go back to the Pinnacle movement and rework that as soon as I get my new timing machine microphone setup made. I'll take readings before and after the process. I'm tempted to try and video it as well...

  the first watchmakers oil was  WHALE  OIL.   because it  did not evaporate or solidify.   ever since there has been many oils AND arguments as to which is best.    check out all the posts on this forum.  vin

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9 minutes ago, vinn3 said:

the first watchmakers oil was  WHALE  OIL.   because it  did not evaporate or solidify.   ever since there has been many oils AND arguments as to which is best.    check out all the posts on this forum.  vin

Excellent - it's lard, 3-in-1 and WD40 for me from now on then :devil:

Edited by p2n
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Lubrication is such an interesting subject. So let's go old school and that doesn't necessarily mean 100 years ago. So the very minimalistic is a oil and grease one of each. Ideally a light oil, heavy oil and grease. This is actually quite common not just 100 years ago.

One of my watchmaker friends likes to argue over your same argument too many lubricants. He also has his grandfather's Journal of watch repair the jobs he did, you know how often the watches were serviced back then? The cases weren't sealed up like modern automatics 1 or 2 year service intervals. So the lubrication's didn't have to go beyond two years. Then what about the effect of timing machines they've existed for quite some time but what about these newfangled ones that have amplitude?

So evolution of lubrication in horology? The time between the service intervals increases with modern automatic watches sealed up minimum of five years or more is expected. Not the factories wording but my wording pleasing the timing machine. We now have specifications particularly  amplitude at both fully wound up and 24 hours later. Then even the amount of lubrication used in a watch has changed as the factories discovered that the super minimalistic doesn't last for five or  whatever years.

 

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29 minutes ago, p2n said:

Excellent - it's lard, 3-in-1 and WD40 for me from now on then

Do they make synthetic lard? We have artificial butter we could use that instead. Then the chemical makeup a WD-40 I'm not sure we know what that is? It comes up in clock repair they seem to frown on it but it does come in a nice spray can handy for watch lubrication so we don't have to buy those expensive dip oiler's and the cups to go with.

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21 minutes ago, JohnR725 said:

minimalistic is a oil and grease one of each. Ideally a light oil, heavy oil and grease

Light oil = wd40 (actually it's a volatile solvent for penetration and a light oil)

Heavy oil = 3-in-1, well heavy as far as watches are concerned

Grease = lard = whale oil.

Ok - I'm mucking about a bit but sometimes the newest lubricant is made not for the watch but for the watchmakers wallet.

I'll accept the CSFC oils (cheap sh*t from china) aren't any good and I realize that 130 years ago they didn't have synthetics and the organic oils spoiled after a time. But event then they didn't need 20 oils per mech.

As for me I'm picking up the cheap ones on ebay - none cost more than tenner - so i don't expect much. On the original subject [running slow] if I had a normal distribution of rates I'd be ok - it was just they were all massively slow. So wondered if it was me ...

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1 minute ago, p2n said:

As for me I'm picking up the cheap ones on ebay - none cost more than tenner - so i don't expect much. On the original subject [running slow] if I had a normal distribution of rates I'd be ok - it was just they were all massively slow. So wondered if it was me

It is interesting that they all run slow? Then as long as the hands agree with the timing machine. But in watch repair especially old watches almost anything is possible. Then were still stuck with each watch has to be looked at as an individual. At least until we figure out whether there is a common cause.

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