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Specs Way Off After Reassembly


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The going train will usually work well enough with minor damage.. a problem here will show up as an anomaly in the timegrapher trace.

The barrel can cause problems.. common mistakes is the lid not being closed fully resulting in rubbing on the plate/bridge.

The above two areas can be eliminated by removing the balance and pallet fork. With a bit of wind on the ratchet screw the wheels should wind down slowly and have no more 'life' if the wheels are 'helped' along.

I would look closely at the pallet fork and balance, the impulse jewels can get misaligned and usually when I have a problem with the balance its usually solved by cleaning out the balance jewels!

 

Good luck.

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3 hours ago, Lawren5 said:

The balance wheel jewels were removed and lubed but they looked like they were just one piece. Could this be correct or would these jewels likely have caps?

Your watch has the Incabloc balance jewels video below shows how it works. Video isn't 100% correct in that the hole jewel is permanently mounted in the setting. But the Cap jewel is supposed to come off for lubrication. Then notice how the Cap jewel is flat on one side curve on the other. It's a common mistake that people put the wrong side out. Then the settings themselves and or the Cap jewel is usually a different size or thickness on the dial side.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FakIAZxcDII

3 hours ago, Lawren5 said:

  The movement was running fast prior to teardown and is much faster after reassembly. It also takes more winding of the crown to get the balance wheel turning.

If it takes more winding of the crown to get the balance wheel turning it's an indication of friction someplace.

 

 

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So your software indicates + and - (would be a complete load of rubbish if it didn't) . Old movements on wind up that don't start up on their own, require a bit of a shake, this isn't really of any practical concern and can be good time keepers.
You say the movement was already a fast runner. When you re-fitted the balance to the cock:- did the hairspring want to fit naturally to the regulator pins or did it require manipulation. This can often be a sign that the hairspring has been "Messed about with" and in your movements case, shortened as a result a breakage. Or by some idiot, as a cure for slow running. Just another thing to consider, as well as all the above.
Alterations of hairsprings really is a specialist job and requires lots of practice.
Enjoy your Timegrapher when it arrives. They are good fun. Personally I find the trace lines more useful than specific figures stated, particularly on the cheaper variety. They are a very useful aid.

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9 hours ago, Lawren5 said:

It also takes more winding of the crown to get the balance wheel turning.

That's another indication that something is wrong with the mov.t after reassembly. A physical timegrapher (or a timegrapher at all) is not needed in such cases.

Unfortunately in the haste of discussing tangential subjects or even the instrument itself, people here have forgot to list again the most basic steps and checks, e.g.

  • Do the train spin really free with balance and pallet fork removed? Does it have a slight "counter-rotation" as it stops?
  • With balance removed, does it advance OK when moving the tip of the work from side to side with a toothpick?
  • Pallet fork stones integrity under high magnification?
  • Balance end-shake tested? This crucial
  • A corollary of the above: Balance oscillates nicely when installed without pallet fork?

I'm sure there can be more checks or procedures as described in books or in the great training videos by Mark. I'm not a teacher or even a good repairer but I hope you'll be helped by these.

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I should of continued but didn't have time. If you can't find anything apparent. Often a fix would be, if there's any tail left on the hairspring. Would be to lengthen and re-stud. Lengthening and shortening on old pocket watches, can at times, be the only viable solution. The micro adjuster is not very efficient.
I think the modern Seiko has about a 9 minute variation but I've never tried it.

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1 hour ago, digginstony said:

I should of continued but didn't have time. If you can't find anything apparent. Often a fix would be, if there's any tail left on the hairspring. Would be to lengthen and re-stud. Lengthening and shortening on old pocket watches, can at times, be the only viable solution. The micro adjuster is not very efficient.
I think the modern Seiko has about a 9 minute variation but I've never tried it.

There again you're confusing the OP and leading the topic off way with your talk of magnetization first, then insinuating that the timing application is lying, and now suggesting that something is wrong with the hairspring length!

All that when it was clear since the beginning that the watch suffers of poor amplitude!

Each one had the right to speak his thinking here, but I will have to tell frankly now that your postings on this topic have been wrong and useless. And as moderator I must apologize for the unusually low quality of this thread.

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2 minutes ago, Mark said:

I think I agree with @khunter - the terminal curve looks distorted.

Thank you @Mark. I am far from an expert, but I believe in looking for the obvious problems first, and thus the most likely. An increase from 0.1ms to 17ms on beat error clearly indicates a hairspring issue. An error that large will then cause poor amplitude and rate issues. I think there are way too many cooks in the kitchen on this.

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There again you're confusing the OP and leading the topic off way with your talk of magnetization first, then insinuating that the timing application is lying, and now suggesting that something is wrong with the hairspring length!
All that when it was clear since the beginning that the watch suffers of poor amplitude!
Each one had the right to speak his thinking here, but I will have to tell frankly now that your postings on this topic have been wrong and useless. And as moderator I must apologize for the unusually low quality of this thread.
Firstly I didn't say the machine is lying. I said don't trust the readings without an amplitude.
Second. I didn't know if the watch had been demagetised. Prior to any readings.
Third I didn't understand why everyone assumed the watch was running fast and not slow, without confirmation from the OP.
And lastly I never heard lengthening or shortening a hairspring called (Mutilation!).
But anyway. I apologise for any confusion and will leave this thread.

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14 minutes ago, digginstony said:

But anyway. I apologise for any confusion and will leave this thread.

I'm the one apologizing for sounding harsh in saying my thinking. No further postings from myself here and best of luck to the OP Lawren5 for this repair and more to come.

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When reassembling there are a few checks you can make as you go ! After assembly of the wheel train and spring barrel I give it a LITTLE wind and look at the 4th wheel and escape wheel for run back they should stop and run back a little bit due to the inertia in the  train causing backlash in the mainspring. No run back something binding like the spring barrel cover not seated correctly as has already been mentioned. I then oil barrel and train if all's well the run back will increase. I then mount the balance wheel ( without the pallet installed.)   I then check for end shake freedom of rotation ,hair spring orientation laterally and contricity and the position of the impulse pin it should be on a direct line with centre off the balance staff and the escape wheel staff. Take balance wheel and bridge out again and install pallet give one wind of crown the pallet arm should be on one banking pin I then take my fine tweezers put them together and push slowly on the fork end in the direction it travels when It gets almost half way it should jump across to the other banking pin do the same thing the other way and it should jump back. That took longer to type than it takes to do. 

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6 hours ago, digginstony said:

should of continued but didn't have time. If you can't find anything apparent. Often a fix would be, if there's any tail left on the hairspring. Would be to lengthen and re-stud. Lengthening and shortening on old pocket watches, can at times, be the only viable solution. The micro adjuster is not very efficient.
I think the modern Seiko has about a 9 minute variation but I've never tried it.

Very importance in watch repair is not to do something until you know why you're doing it. The watch magically changed between the before and after..  Pocket watches a little bit different in that  we've had 100 years of watch repair and all sorts of bizarre things have happened then occasionally lengthening the hairspring can be a solution. In other words it started with a fast problem it didn't occur  in between like we have here. It's unlikely the hairspring magically shortened itself at the stud. So re-pinning at the stud isn't an option for this watch  besides this is a modern watch there probably is no hairspring left over at the stud..

So a challenge and watch repair is grasping what you're looking at or wait your looking for. Often times people grab microscopes  thinking because it's really be egg the problem will jump out and wave at them and it doesn't. True magnification helps but you still have to grasp what you're looking at.

So one of the things you did good for us in the discussion is you did a before. It's always nice to know where you started from.  So the before it looks quite nice and you should have been able to regulate out it's running fast.  The reason I bring this up is  a lot of the problems that could cause what were seeing  wouldn't have occurred in normal cleaning. So the easiest thing is to destroy damage as a beginner are screwing up to hairspring. If you try really hard sometimes not very hard even been the pivots or worst-case break them off. Breaking off 10 speak quite common for all of us from time to time.

So read the post by Siro Particularly beginning. But the balance wheel removed to the pallet fork removed you gently start to wind the watch the trains spins stop winding. The train will continue to go forward for little bit  and you will get back spin. If you get back spin  to definite indication the train is free.. There are few watches that will not produce back spin.  then you can put your pallet fork back in wind the watch up a little bit move the fork manually back and forth make sure it snaps nicely it's also a great time for lubricating the pallet stones. Definitely not the pallet fork pivots.

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OK, some success. I decided to try my hand at smoothing out the distortion at the terminal end of the hairspring. After the initial attempt, the readings were as follows:

Rate: -541 s/d
Beat error: 0.5 ms
Amplitude: 174 deg
BPH: 18000

Big improvement over the previous readings so the next step was to adjust the rate. Not sure how I did it but the hairspring got dislodged from the regulator pins. The regulator has a lip at the bottom (see photo) which means I would have to twist the hairspring to get it back in. Is this acceptable or is it best to disconnect the hairspring at the stud?

 

P1020596_1.jpg

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Just remove the stud from the balance bridge with the spring still attached. There should  be a screw holding the stud in place. Don't remove the spring from the stud. Turn the bridge upside down and replace the balance, dropping the spring in between the pins, place the stud back in its hole and tighten the screw. 

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Very importance in watch repair is not to do something until you know why you're doing it. The watch magically changed between the before and after..  Pocket watches a little bit different in that  we've had 100 years of watch repair and all sorts of bizarre things have happened then occasionally lengthening the hairspring can be a solution. In other words it started with a fast problem it didn't occur  in between like we have here. It's unlikely the hairspring magically shortened itself at the stud. So re-pinning at the stud isn't an option for this watch  besides this is a modern watch there probably is no hairspring left over at the stud..
So a challenge and watch repair is grasping what you're looking at or wait your looking for. Often times people grab microscopes  thinking because it's really be egg the problem will jump out and wave at them and it doesn't. True magnification helps but you still have to grasp what you're looking at.
So one of the things you did good for us in the discussion is you did a before. It's always nice to know where you started from.  So the before it looks quite nice and you should have been able to regulate out it's running fast.  The reason I bring this up is  a lot of the problems that could cause what were seeing  wouldn't have occurred in normal cleaning. So the easiest thing is to destroy damage as a beginner are screwing up to hairspring. If you try really hard sometimes not very hard even been the pivots or worst-case break them off. Breaking off 10 speak quite common for all of us from time to time.
So read the post by Siro Particularly beginning. But the balance wheel removed to the pallet fork removed you gently start to wind the watch the trains spins stop winding. The train will continue to go forward for little bit  and you will get back spin. If you get back spin  to definite indication the train is free.. There are few watches that will not produce back spin.  then you can put your pallet fork back in wind the watch up a little bit move the fork manually back and forth make sure it snaps nicely it's also a great time for lubricating the pallet stones. Definitely not the pallet fork pivots.
That's so unfair to start quoting my post after I've left the thread. I never suggested springs can magically shorten themselves. Just like I never said timing devices tell lies. I don't understand why I'm suddenly being sniped at on this forum.
What I suggested the movement may of been over oiled during service and was struggling. Run the watch for 24 hrs in the hope things may improve and the first reading prior to service may or may not be the more accurate. Now to reiterate I've left the thread.

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Ok. This has gone far enough. We are all here to help each other.
I fear this thread is not going in the direction the OP intended and as the issue is pretty much resolved I will close the thread.
To the OP: if the issue is not resolved and you wish me to reopen the thread then Please PM me and I will do so.

Anybody who does not wish to be involved in any threads can easily unsubscribe from notifications at the top of the page.

I think we all need a beer and chill :D


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