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WOS mic & watch holder.

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As you are showing different programs I thought I would show a comparison. So I'm using a TimeTrax clip on microphone which is a clock pickup piezo inside. Different preamplifier plugged into a USB sound adapter. Then I'm getting my power for the preamp off the USB 5 V as I really don't like batteries.

Then the witschi timing machine is nice photographing the screen is not but you can still read it. As you can see the watch is having issues but that works fine for software comparison. Then tomorrow it goes to work and the run it on machine there.

 

 

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The comparison is good. It shows that with a good (expensive/professional) pickup you can use any of the three.

I'm trying to work out what will work best for a hobby user with limited funds - a cheaper mic with poorer SN ratio.

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Strangely enough were both looking for the same thing. Then the particular pickup I'm currently using is available at the link below. The reason I'm pointing it out is its $20 and he hasn't changed the price in the last a very long time. So it's inexpensive and it does work but it's designed for clocks and has a very aggressive clip. Then on the same page he has a watch pickup it's not inexpensive.

http://adamsbrown.com/wordpress1/timetrax-timers/

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One of the problems with the timing machine software discussion is how many pages have accumulated. So interesting ideas or pictures have been shown such as the two pages below. So I'm extracting out some of the keys stuff.

So the clip on microphone is relatively simple to make As you can see from the images below. There's more to it than just a disk attached to the alligator clip.

Also attached images of their watch pickup. On one of the pages below there is also the Microset version of the watch pickup. Basically the same concept protruding pin to transmit the vibrations the disc. So the disc itself is protected by being a box and isolated from audio sounds. It's why I think of the TimeTrax version they put the hot glue across the desk to minimize sound pickup as a guess. Strangely enough the Microset version just has a disk. So better than the disc would be the Piezo Bi-Morph Vibration Element Found at the link below.  Then if we can figure out a design 3-D printers would allow complex designs to be made cheaply. His 3-D printers are more common on people's kitchen tables now or their companies out there now make stuff for you that opens up a nice possibility.

https://www.watchrepairtalk.com/topic/3002-d-i-y-watch-timing-machine/?page=6

 

https://www.watchrepairtalk.com/topic/3002-d-i-y-watch-timing-machine/?page=21

https://uk.rs-online.com/web/p/vibration-sensors/0285784/

 

 

 

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First of all, what a beauty the graphic presentation of the Wistchi! And your options. I'm going to say a little. In the first instance, our tool should be as sharp as possible. That will make things easier if our ability is too. We can not expect consistent results if any of these things are not well-honed. Something over which we have no control is how the watches we repair will reach our hands. And for that, I'll cite an example I had last week. I got a Junghas kitchen wall clock. from about 1960. It is a "floating" type Spiral balance wheel watch. But this one has the peculiarity
 that is suspended magnetically. Two toroids or magnet donuts in equal poles are responsible for suspending the balance wheel. The clock was stopped, so we could not do a "before" reading. After a thorough work cleaning and correcting wear problems, when making the measurements with the time machine, NO COULD DETECT IT. None detected the beat. It was only Biburo who helped me. In its beat detection mode. What was the matter? the clock was gaining 25 minutes a day. That already co-operates with any machine. So, what are the machines for? To help us, but for that we have to know them. Or choose among those that we have to help us better. On the other hand, neither WOS, much less tg, had among their list of beats, 9000 bph. or 2.5 bps. So I went to sleep or at least to the bed thinking about why the beat could not be detected. The easiest thing would have been to place hands and see how much time went ahead for at least 12 hours. Then I was thinking ... in bed ... and the next day I had the solution: it was ridiculously simple. The regulator was too out of range. Although the index indicated 0, the regulator was not at the correct point.

Here is del Clock:  

 

5acfbee5c3835_Junghans2.5bps9000bph1.PNG.ba577b4fc000b127b44d92c663cfcfb7.PNG

Clock Junghans.

5acfbee4e33e0_Junghans2.5bps9000bph5.PNG.a6bc6d7aa8b8a6fa9aee7b29deb465d7.PNG

Clock Junghans final correction

 

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2 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

One of the problems with the timing machine software discussion is how many pages have accumulated. So interesting ideas or pictures have been shown such as the two pages below. So I'm extracting out some of the keys stuff.

So the clip on microphone is relatively simple to make As you can see from the images below. There's more to it than just a disk attached to the alligator clip.

Also attached images of their watch pickup. On one of the pages below there is also the Microset version of the watch pickup. Basically the same concept protruding pin to transmit the vibrations the disc. So the disc itself is protected by being a box and isolated from audio sounds. It's why I think of the TimeTrax version they put the hot glue across the desk to minimize sound pickup as a guess. Strangely enough the Microset version just has a disk. So better than the disc would be the Piezo Bi-Morph Vibration Element Found at the link below.  Then if we can figure out a design 3-D printers would allow complex designs to be made cheaply. His 3-D printers are more common on people's kitchen tables now or their companies out there now make stuff for you that opens up a nice possibility.

https://www.watchrepairtalk.com/topic/3002-d-i-y-watch-timing-machine/?page=6

 

https://www.watchrepairtalk.com/topic/3002-d-i-y-watch-timing-machine/?page=21

https://uk.rs-online.com/web/p/vibration-sensors/0285784/

 

 

 

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The key part of the Timetrax sensor is not that the box isolates the sound. Rather, all the tension is not received by the sensor, but by the pin. Key is that the sensor itself, does not receive tension flexion pressure or torsion ....

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I agree that the better the offered signal at the MIC input, the better will be  the possible evaluation.
What software alone can do, shows a picture taken from PCTM Info.pdf:

@ Guido
Also with your Junghans issues above TM can help, 9000 is included,  extreme errors can be measured with beat detect (this is not included in free version, sorry). TMs must have a limit for detectable error, else automatic rate selecting would not work.

Regards, Frank

 

SW filter1.jpg

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2 hours ago, praezis said:

I agree that the better the offered signal at the MIC input, the better will be  the possible evaluation.
What software alone can do, shows a picture taken from PCTM Info.pdf:

@ Guido
Also with your Junghans issues above TM can help, 9000 is included,  extreme errors can be measured with beat detect (this is not included in free version, sorry). TMs must have a limit for detectable error, else automatic rate selecting would not work.

Regards, Frank

 

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Thank you very much Frank, very good explanation. And I agree. TMCP is an excellent software. Very efficient clean and simple. It is one of my favorites when some of the others fail. I would like to know how much the full version costs. I do not think I'm in conditions because of economics. But maybe some of the classmates are interested. It seems to me a very good option.

Regards Guido

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21 hours ago, guidovelasquez said:

time machine, NO COULD DETECT IT. None detected the beat

One of the problems with timing machines are they typically only auto select a limited range of frequencies. For instance a page from the 1000 manual below. So it will do 9000 except then there's the other problem. You can only go + or - 999.9 seconds Which was outside of your range. Then there is one other problem if the timing machine thinks it's timing typically a lever escapement sometimes it doesn't know what to do with things like this in wouldn't time it at all.

So people who do clock repair this isn't an issue because there timing machines measure beats per hour.

Then witschi this wouldn't be a problem in that it has frequency mode. In this mode you get the BPH displayed. Also if it's having issues with the escapement you can turn it to rate mode only it will only tell you the rate of the watch it will no longer calculate the amplitude or beat. This is really nice when you're having a watch that's having some bad issues and you still want to see with the rate is. Also while in frequency mode it uses that frequency for the graphical display. This is handy if you want to see what the watches doing on the graphical display and you can't see it if the angle is so extreme basically flattens out the display.

So a feature that should be added to WOS  Is the ability to display BPH.

 

 

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On 4/12/2018 at 2:06 AM, JohnR725 said:

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I thought I would finish the comparisons of the one watch I was doing. But this does show an interesting problem which I've seen before when doing multi timing machine testing. For instance one watch two hardware-based machines then you photographed both of them together which will notice is they're averaging over different parts of the waveform. So ideally when comparing everything it be nice if we had one watch multiple computers multiple machines and then photograph capturing that moment in time or we can study it in leisure.

So at home photograph on the witschi machine was first then same set up for all the software so they're basically one right after another. Then the next day or quite a few hours later the witschi at work. So I did wind the watch back up and let it run down a little bit conceivably it's not have the exact same state as when I took the initial photographs. Then notice the graphical displays are all the different? On the witschi at work they call it zoom it set to 2. My witschi at home is also on 2 but displays don't quite look the same graphically. Then changing the zoom feature does basically magnify the line.

Then if you've ever noticed any time someone shows timing machine results I typically ask for it be nice to have some multiposition results in their question. If you look at the dial down position you'll notice visible gap? Then on the numeric results dial down and dial up aren't quite the same? Then notice the amplitude seems be just a little too much and definitely too much on dial down. This is what happens when the roller jewel comes all the way around it bumps into the fork on the back side.

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The positions that produce the greatest amplitudes are the horizontal ones for the balance wheel. The values should be as close as possible, that would indicate that there is no damage or anomaly in the pivots and bearings of the balance wheel axle or something in the pallets, roller ratio.Here I can guess that something happened. the watch received full wind. The main spring is completely wound up and that generates this bounce. (Rebanking.)

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My piezo element, piezo vibration sensor and condenser mic pre-amp have all arrived. Not had much time to play but:

1) the vibration sensor is a piece of junk.

2) the piezo is looking promising

3) not tried pre-amp yet.

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2 minutes ago, JohnR725 said:

Which vibration sensor?

This one

Was a long shot but wanted to see if an off the shelf thing would work. It seems like it's just too insensitive - event flicking the sensor with a finger didn't do much. To be honest I've not given up on it yet, but I need to get my 'scope out the loft and see what's really coming out of it. Just twisting wires and shoving it into the mic socket on the laptop didn't work. Problem is we're moving house soon and all my kit is packed away.

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5 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

Which vibration sensor?

Was expected. The sensor that we are looking forward to be tested is the one that JohnR725 has indicated to us. I am not surprised at all in your statement. Do not worry ... we've also lost time and money on devices like that.

https://uk.rs-online.com/web/p/vibration-sensors/0285784/

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So documentation is interesting the picture of yours doesn't match the picture of the one at the link or the documentation is. But I'm guessing that the circuits are the same. Then the description gives the impression that it might be a linear device where it is actually outputting a digital signal. I'm attaching the schematic which may be similar to yours probably is. So a dual op amp two amplify the sensor outputting to a digital comparator. So just tap into the output of the op amp use a capacitor before feeding into the computer.

 

http://wiki.seeedstudio.com/Grove-Piezo_Vibration_Sensor/

vibration sensor and board.JPG

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Not getting much time to fiddle with this (or the watches) lately, but managed to try the piezo again. I soldered a brass pin to the piezo and when that is contacted with the stem or backplate of a movement it generates a good signal. No preamp - just wired direct to the laptop mic socket.

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This is just me holding the movement on the pin on the sensor.

 

Depending on time I want to try and make a better holder, then I compare mic setup's better.

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On 4/12/2018 at 3:06 AM, JohnR725 said:

As you are showing different programs I thought I would show a comparison. So I'm using a TimeTrax clip on microphone which is a clock pickup piezo inside. Different preamplifier plugged into a USB sound adapter. Then I'm getting my power for the preamp off the USB 5 V as I really don't like batteries.

Then the witschi timing machine is nice photographing the screen is not but you can still read it. As you can see the watch is having issues but that works fine for software comparison. Then tomorrow it goes to work and the run it on machine there.

 

 

zx-33.JPG

zx-22.JPG

zx-11.JPG

zx-3.JPG

zx-2.JPG

zx-1.JPG

 

Thank you very much for the valuable information you share with us. Can you please share an audio file so that you can compare the sound you get with the components you mentioned, please?

Thank you

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18 hours ago, guidovelasquez said:

Thank you very much for the valuable information you share with us. Can you please share an audio file so that you can compare the sound you get with the components you mentioned, please?

In my case there's no files everything is done live.

Although looking at your question it would be nice if we did have a standard audio file So you verify were getting the correct results.

 

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Hi,
rather late, I know. 
But just today I read this interesting thread again and looked at the sound file "Ingersol-trenton.wav" from post #1. From the speaker I could already hear considerable echo. Curious, I ran the file in PCTM (after conversion to mono). But there was a nearly perfect graph line and waveform, I could not see any evidence of suspected echo:

osz_ingers_fi_a.thumb.jpg.8fdbd8aee9a515585de30d24a9782e18.jpg

Ok - filter is on by default. 
Switched filter off:

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Now the original sound appears. What a difference, the tic noise can hardly be recognized. Apparent is a wave at about 600 Hz, which probably comes from heavy resonance in the pickup device. And some 50Hz hum is visible, too.

Frank
 

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