Running slow - regulator already at max

[BUSAKAZ]

If you look at the PDF I attached previously you see for over coil type hairsprings the pins are supposed to be really really close. But if you read enough books enough references and look at enough watches then black and white rules do not necessarily exist.
So we also look at the quality of the watch and when it was made. The pins themselves look to be non-bendable and as long as their parallel is the way the watch was designed. Theoretically today we know it's wrong but that was the way the watch was made. Sometimes the pins are more flexible you can bend them they won't be parallel but the hairspring doesn't move around enough to be a problem usually but it does depend on the watch.
 

I have brought many of Railroad grade pocked watch all of the pins are parallel and wide apart, if they are manufactured that way to keep within Railroad time surly they are not wrong this is how I see it, I have brought many of pocket watch of the bay where you see the regulator to one side or the other to find that people have tampered with the pins and messed it up, this is only what I have experienced and would like to share with others. When buying watches look where the regulator is.........

All the best
Kaz


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[khunter]

Right now it looks like the best route is to turn the two main meantime screws (at the ends of the arms) all the way in and check the rate. They definitely don't appear to be equal anyway, and you're going to end up chasing your tail on the hairspring issue. Turn them out equally in small increments to get it close, then use the regulator for the final adjustment. One step at a time. This watch wasn't designed as a tight tolerance movement anyway, so I'd focus on the timing screws to start with. If after that the regulator doesn't function correctly then I'd tinker with the pins.

[JohnR725]

2 hours ago, khunter said:

Right now it looks like the best route is to turn the two main meantime screws (at the ends of the arms) all the way in and check the rate. They definitely don't appear to be equal anyway, and you're going to end up chasing your tail on the hairspring issue. Turn them out equally in small increments to get it close, then use the regulator for the final adjustment. One step at a time. This watch wasn't designed as a tight tolerance movement anyway, so I'd focus on the timing screws to start with. If after that the regulator doesn't function correctly then I'd tinker with the pins.

So on paper the plan is outstanding except unfortunately I speak from experience with mean time screws. Mean time screws are interesting the threads have been designed so that the screw can be adjusted in and out and it stays wherever you leave it. But those are really tiny threads in brass and there's a limit of how much adjustment you could do. Plus we don't know the past history of how much adjustment other then they don't appear to be correct. So a modification of the plan to minimize screwing the screws too much. Otherwise you end up with loose meantime screws.

So rather than going all the way in and coming out were only going to go in. We're not going to worry about whether they're in the right place or try to correct for poise because you can end up chasing your tail if you try to play with the screws without statically poising first. So first put the regulator at zero and see what it's doing on the timing machine. Then one full turn in of the mean time screws on the arm .

Then one full turn of one Pair of screws isn't going to To be enough but you can use that as a gauge. To understand the effect of the mean time screws and timing I'm attaching a Hamilton PDF. You'll notice that they prefer to adjust all of the mean time screws this way the weight is evenly distributed. But I wouldn't worry about that for now if it all. Start with a pair see what happens more than likely it will be all the screws at least one turn they go to fractional turns when you're getting close and finally the regulator.

 

Hamilton tech_note_on_regulation.pdf

[p2n]

All these images and more here

Think these cover all the questions where I didn't have a good image.

Just been cleaned and drying out.

Will reassemble and oil everything except the pallet arbour (Escape lever pivots?)

 

[p2n]

So, after the rebuild and *very* light oiling these are the numbers with the regulator reset to mid point and the 4 timing screws moved in (I did this in stages but ended up with them almost all in). This is immediately after the rebuild - I'll recheck in 24 hours.

(also found my WOS setup has repeatability issues; rate and beat error are consistent but amplitude varies a lot - could be the watch or my setup, I can't tell)

Position  Rate  Amp   Beat err
DD        -359  262   1.5
DU        -318  213   2.5
PU        -345  167   1.7
PR        -324  147   1.1
PL        -539  125   2.2
PD        -498  154   1.6

Regulator to max (only got two readings as lamps are generating a lot of noise that interfering with my WOS mic)

Position  Rate  Amp   Beat err
DD        -238  326   1.2
DU        -200  215   1.5

Will post tomorrow with updated readings.

 

[JohnR725]

I thought we could do an experiment as timing machines have a problem. Perhaps it's not the timing machines problem it's the users problem. That is there instantaneous instant results of what the watches doing but the reality is not always the same.

So an experiment is needed. Wind the watch all the way up let it run about 30 minutes. Run the timing at all positions. Wait 24 hours read time with the software but do not wind the watch. Also you need to set the watch to a decent time standard. It's amazing how much fluctuation peoples time standards half which results in confusion over what their watches may or may not be doing. So verify it ended 24 hours with your hands of the watch what it did. Then post all the results.

Then yes we can still speed up the watch even without the mean time screws as there appear to be timing washers under some of the other screws. But we don't want to play with that until we see how everything turns out

[khunter]

You should read this blog, it has TONS of truly helpful advice on regulation and adjustment of vintage watches.

adjustingvintagewatches.com

The difference you're seeing in amplitude between the DU/DD and the other 4 positions is normal (DU/DD will almost always be better than the positions as far as amplitude is concerned), but to start with your DU/DD rates should be close before going any further. Suffice it to say that differences in the DU and DD position can be several things, the first of which to investigate is of course the condition of the balance pivots and the jewels. Then from there you move on to looking for any parts rubbing/interfering with something, etc. The blog above is extremely detailed and informative, I would definitely have a look.

As a side note, your photo of the balance/hairspring seems to me to show a distorted hairspring, coils not concentric, etc. Until the hairspring is in proper shape all of the other adjustments will be useless.

[p2n]

8 hours ago, khunter said:

You should read this blog, it has TONS of truly helpful advice on regulation and adjustment of vintage watches.

adjustingvintagewatches.com

i have - very interesting.

8 hours ago, khunter said:

your photo of the balance/hairspring seems to me to show a distorted hairspring

I'll double check. It's got an overcoil on and still has some IPA on it when the photo was taken.

I'm wondering if the balance staff needs replacing - not something I feel confident attempting at the moment.

[praezis]

17 hours ago, khunter said:

As a side note, your photo of the balance/hairspring seems to me to show a distorted hairspring, coils not concentric, etc. Until the hairspring is in proper shape all of the other adjustments will be useless

And even more it shows. If you look at the hairspring collet: this is not the original hairspring, probably reason of your timing problems (apart from amplitude issues).

Frank 

[p2n]

30 minutes ago, praezis said:

if you look at the hairspring collet: this is not the original hairspring, probably reason of your timing problems

That's interesting! How can you tell? I suppose it's not surprising considering this is a cheapish watch and it's probably 110 years old!

Wonder if I can find a balance wheel complete for one on fleabay...

[praezis]

Look at the gap: the.collet was forced on a too big arbor.

Frank

[khunter]

1 hour ago, praezis said:

Look at the gap: the.collet was forced on a too big arbor.

Frank

That's not a gap, it's a shadow

[praezis]

Oh my, you are right!. Damned smartphone!.Thank you.

Frank