Running slow - regulator already at max

[p2n]

This is my Ingersol-Trenton. Fleabay non runner. Stripped, cleaned, new mainspring and fixed clicker.

Now runs quite nice, but slow.

I'm wondering if I cleaned it well enough (still learning and getting the hang of things).

Assuming that another strip down and clean doesn't solve the problem - where would you suggest I look next?

Quite fond of this one - it's the first 'whole' watch I've got running. The other were just mechanisms so you can't exactly carry them around!

 

[Chopin]

Perhaps a stupid question but did you also LUBRICATE the movement ?

[khunter]

The amplitude looks low, and I'd bet the lift angle is actually less than 52 degrees, which would make the actual amplitude even less. I'd re-check the balance pivots and jewels, and proper lubrication as @Chopin asked is critical. If you lubed the pallet arbor that could be the cause of a low amplitude and or losing rate. I would also check to make sure the hair spring was inside the regulator pins. I wouldn't expect too much from this particular movement, but better than -200 sec a day is achievable. You stated you replaced the mainspring as well, was it an exact match? Too weak will cause low amplitude (but generally a gain in time) which is not indicated here on the timegrapher image. I would work backwards from the balance wheel and make sure each component is functioning as it should. 

Edited April 5, 2018 by khunter

[jguitron]

The hairspring is not aligned with the balance wheel.

 

You should remove the hairspring, and assemble the balance without the hairspring.

 

Move the regulator to the middle position.

 

Now you should slowly rotate the wheel until you find the dead point. Mark the spot on the wheel where the regulator is located at dead point.

 

Remove the wheel and reinsert the hairspring with the stud right under your mark.

 

Now that you put it all back together you’ll be able to regulate well.

 

I hope this helps.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[khunter]

55 minutes ago, jguitron said:

The hairspring is not aligned with the balance wheel.

 

You should remove the hairspring, and assemble the balance without the hairspring.

 

Move the regulator to the middle position.

 

Now you should slowly rotate the wheel until you find the dead point. Mark the spot on the wheel where the regulator is located at dead point.

 

Remove the wheel and reinsert the hairspring with the stud right under your mark.

 

Now that you put it all back together you’ll be able to regulate well.

 

I hope this helps.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

I'm not sure where you're coming from, the beat error doesn't indicate a hairspring alignment issue, or at least a big one (1.5ms). Besides, the stud is fixed to the balance bridge, you can't change its position. If you're talking about putting the balance wheel in beat, that still won't fix the regulating error, and determining the center point for the beat adjustment has nothing to do with the regulator position. If I'm missing something please let me know.

[p2n]

Thanks for all the responses.

What would be the lift angle for a watch like this? I've left the beat on autodetect and the lift angle at the default on the WOS software.

Yes - everything was lubricated, including the pallet arbor and pallet stones. The spring is correctly located in the regulator pins.

Maybe I put a little too much - I was using a medium oiler pin.

The spring wasn't an exact match - I couldn't find one. It's 0.195 instead of 0.2 thick and slightly longer (540 instead of 480). The previous one was set. The new spring improved things though - the watch went from -600s/d to around the -200 mark.

Looking at the trace I noticed a periodic pattern - could this be a tight spot/dirt on the 3rd or 4th wheel?

 

I'll strip and clean again. My book (Practical Watch Repair by De Carle) has now arrived so I'll checkout the section of lubrication before reassembly and see if that helps.

 

[BUSAKAZ]

Thanks for all the responses.
What would be the lift angle for a watch like this? I've left the beat on autodetect and the lift angle at the default on the WOS software.
Yes - everything was lubricated, including the pallet arbor and pallet stones. The spring is correctly located in the regulator pins.
Maybe I put a little too much - I was using a medium oiler pin.
The spring wasn't an exact match - I couldn't find one. It's 0.195 instead of 0.2 thick and slightly longer (540 instead of 480). The previous one was set. The new spring improved things though - the watch went from -600s/d to around the -200 mark.
Looking at the trace I noticed a periodic pattern - could this be a tight spot/dirt on the 3rd or 4th wheel?

 
I'll strip and clean again. My book (Practical Watch Repair by De Carle) has now arrived so I'll checkout the section of lubrication before reassembly and see if that helps.
 

Is the hairspring vibrating between the regulator pins, there needs to be enough space so that you can get three hair springs in there tight or parallel pins, make sure the pins are not gripping the spring.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[jguitron]

Thanks for all the responses.
What would be the lift angle for a watch like this? I've left the beat on autodetect and the lift angle at the default on the WOS software.
Yes - everything was lubricated, including the pallet arbor and pallet stones. The spring is correctly located in the regulator pins.
Maybe I put a little too much - I was using a medium oiler pin.
The spring wasn't an exact match - I couldn't find one. It's 0.195 instead of 0.2 thick and slightly longer (540 instead of 480). The previous one was set. The new spring improved things though - the watch went from -600s/d to around the -200 mark.
Looking at the trace I noticed a periodic pattern - could this be a tight spot/dirt on the 3rd or 4th wheel?

 
I'll strip and clean again. My book (Practical Watch Repair by De Carle) has now arrived so I'll checkout the section of lubrication before reassembly and see if that helps.
 

I’ve been up to my neck in work but I’ll try to explain myself better soon. I don’t see an issue with oiling and such and thaw that you mention a weaker mainspring it does seem to me that that’s why your hairspring and balance wheel need readjusting or conversely try to find a closer to original mainspring.


Cheers it’s Friday!


Quick other thought: the time machine has limitations as to how far off range BE and rate can be displayed. You may be there. I’m not even looking at amp or BE... just the fact that you’re maxed out on your regulator and still too slow.






Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[khunter]

The wavy lines are normally due to magnetization. Lubricating the pallet arbors in some watches actually causes resistance, and therefore a poor amplitude and possibly a low rate. I'd remove it and remove all traces of oil and try again. Normally American pocket watches had a lift angle of around 45-48 degrees. 

[JohnR725]

For lift angle I have a video link below. Then for pocket watches lift angle is all over the place. Of the ones I've measured the lowest was 35 the highest has been 60 everything is in between.

Then where to begin? So many things going on in this discussion. So the mainspring is 0.195 instead of 0.2 That really isn't very much difference in thickness. The original was probably blue the modern is white perhaps? It's getting harder to find mainsprings for pocket watches the modern white ones are different strength than the original blue ones. That kind of difference isn't going to make much difference at all.

Looks like a seven jewel watch perhaps? Seven jewel watches have the habit of having greater friction and with time the holes may be out of round. Then if you're going to taken apart again check the polish the pivots as they will wherewith seven jewel watches.

Then a nice picture of  the balance wheel stopped so we can look at the screws it's possible you could have a mean time Screws although not likely with the watch of this quality. Then it almost looks like a bimetallic balance wheel? I can't tell if it's a cut bimetallic balance wheel when it's moving. A lot of times with bimetallic balance wheels people squeeze them they usually run faster. But somebody might a bent them out the watch would run slow.

Then banking pins are they movable? It's a problem with American pocket watches movable banking pins get moved. Also pallet stones sometimes get moved They can also affect amplitude of her the wrong position.

Then for the beat the watch like this 1.5 ms isn't bad. I would tend to leave that alone. But if you do want to adjust it there other ways to do it then described above you don't have to take the hairspring off but putting the watch in beat is almost another question in itself we should deal with the other issues first.

 

20 hours ago, BUSAKAZ said:

Is the hairspring vibrating between the regulator pins, there needs to be enough space so that you can get three hair springs in there tight or parallel pins, make sure the pins are not gripping the spring.

Interesting I don't think I've ever seen using hairsprings for measuring of the spacing of the regulator pins? Usually  just enough space that when you move the regulator you don't grab the hairspring. If you end up with too much space you get strange timing issues based on the amplitude. In particular the watch runs slower as the amplitude drops.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Xgcck692js

 

 

[BUSAKAZ]

2 minutes ago, JohnR725 said:

For lift angle I have a video link below. Then for pocket watches lift angle is all over the place. Of the ones I've measured the lowest was 35 the highest has been 60 everything is in between.

Then where to begin? So many things going on in this discussion. So the mainspring is 0.195 instead of 0.2 That really isn't very much difference in thickness. The original was probably blue the modern is white perhaps? It's getting harder to find mainsprings for pocket watches the modern white ones are different strength than the original blue ones. That kind of difference isn't going to make much difference at all.

Looks like a seven jewel watch perhaps? Seven jewel watches have the habit of having greater friction and with time the holes may be out of round. Then if you're going to taken apart again check the polish the pivots as they will wherewith seven jewel watches.

Then a nice picture of  the balance wheel stopped so we can look at the screws it's possible you could have a mean time Screws although not likely with the watch of this quality. Then it almost looks like a bimetallic balance wheel? I can't tell if it's a cut bimetallic balance wheel when it's moving. A lot of times with bimetallic balance wheels people squeeze them they usually run faster. But somebody might a bent them out the watch would run slow.

Then banking pins are they movable? It's a problem with American pocket watches movable banking pins get moved. Also pallet stones sometimes get moved They can also affect amplitude of her the wrong position.

Then for the beat the watch like this 1.5 ms isn't bad. I would tend to leave that alone. But if you do want to adjust it there other ways to do it then described above you don't have to take the hairspring off but putting the watch in beat is almost another question in itself we should deal with the other issues first.

 

Interesting I don't think I've ever seen using hairsprings for measuring of the spacing of the regulator pins? Usually  just enough space that when you move the regulator you don't grab the hairspring. If you end up with too much space you get strange timing issues based on the amplitude. In particular the watch runs slower as the amplitude drops.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Xgcck692js

 

 

I have never used 3 hairsprings as a gauge just visualise it    

[BUSAKAZ]

21 minutes ago, JohnR725 said:

For lift angle I have a video link below. Then for pocket watches lift angle is all over the place. Of the ones I've measured the lowest was 35 the highest has been 60 everything is in between.

Then where to begin? So many things going on in this discussion. So the mainspring is 0.195 instead of 0.2 That really isn't very much difference in thickness. The original was probably blue the modern is white perhaps? It's getting harder to find mainsprings for pocket watches the modern white ones are different strength than the original blue ones. That kind of difference isn't going to make much difference at all.

Looks like a seven jewel watch perhaps? Seven jewel watches have the habit of having greater friction and with time the holes may be out of round. Then if you're going to taken apart again check the polish the pivots as they will wherewith seven jewel watches.

Then a nice picture of  the balance wheel stopped so we can look at the screws it's possible you could have a mean time Screws although not likely with the watch of this quality. Then it almost looks like a bimetallic balance wheel? I can't tell if it's a cut bimetallic balance wheel when it's moving. A lot of times with bimetallic balance wheels people squeeze them they usually run faster. But somebody might a bent them out the watch would run slow.

Then banking pins are they movable? It's a problem with American pocket watches movable banking pins get moved. Also pallet stones sometimes get moved They can also affect amplitude of her the wrong position.

Then for the beat the watch like this 1.5 ms isn't bad. I would tend to leave that alone. But if you do want to adjust it there other ways to do it then described above you don't have to take the hairspring off but putting the watch in beat is almost another question in itself we should deal with the other issues first.

 

Interesting I don't think I've ever seen using hairsprings for measuring of the spacing of the regulator pins? Usually  just enough space that when you move the regulator you don't grab the hairspring. If you end up with too much space you get strange timing issues based on the amplitude. In particular the watch runs slower as the amplitude drops.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Xgcck692js

 

 

I have seen lot's of time where the hairspring in resting on one regulator pin (normally the out side pin) the hairspring needs to vibrate between both pins, and in the video he mentions 180 deg looks more like 350 to me ... 

[p2n]

Thanks for all the replays - so many things to work through

Hairspring and regulator pins - it's correctly located and vibrating between the two:

 

The mainspring - the original was a blue steel on as was set as can be seen in this image of the disassembled parts

 

Yes - it appears to be a 7 jewel movement.

The balance wheel in situ

A zoom of it from another image when disassembled:

 

The balance pins to appear to be moveable, haven't got a shot of the other side of the plate so can't tell if there are marks that indicate they've been tampered with. Will get a shot on the next disassembly:

(Crud on gem just visible - this was taken on disassembly before cleaning)

 

The pallet stones look ok to me (which doesn't mean much!) (Bit of a pain getting this shot to focus correctly)

 

All my photos of this watch

 

One final question - this is an "Ingersoll-Trenton", trying to look up the serial number I find "Ingersoll" or "Trenton". Both have a watch with this serial number - which would it most likely be?

 

[JohnR725]

One other little thing you only have one timing chart? Ideally should time in multiple positions such as dial up and down and at least one pendant position. With a pocket watch crown up would be fine. Then don't time after you fully wind the watch up let it run about 30 minutes.

Then regulator pins spacing? I've attached a PDF two different books were used. So one of the books explains the consequences of various things. But the second book has something which I find interesting and hadn't realized. Typically I work on pocket watches with over coil's you'll notice the spacing is different between a flat spring and in over coil spring. So it's under section 135 the associated picture going with the text is on the next page.

Pins.PDF

[JohnR725]

I think I'll handle pictures one of the time starting with the balance wheel image attached. Looks like you have four mean time screws and They look like they're out really really far. So now that we know you timing screws and because they don't look symmetrical I would recommend timing in at least four pendant positions so we could see how bad things look or how good.

Then in the pinkish color circled screw maybe it's an optical illusion but it almost looks like there's a gap between the head of the screw and the balance rim. With the exception of the mean time screws which are allowed to be out all the rest are supposed to be tight against the balance wheel.

Then typically with mean time screws you can put the regulator back at zero and use the timing screws to bring the watch in time with the regulator the final regulation.

[p2n]

26 minutes ago, JohnR725 said:

One other little thing you only have one timing chart?

At the moment yes - I only did one to get a general idea of the watch. Also I've not got my mic and watch holder setup sorted yet, so since DD is easy to do I started there.

DU

PU

I've left the lift angle set to the same default so the traces are comparable.

 

21 minutes ago, JohnR725 said:

pinkish color circled screw maybe it's an optical illusion but it almost looks like there's a gap between the head of the screw and the balance rim

I checked and I think it's a shadow on the image.

I don't have any way to poise a balance wheel, so would it work if I adjusted the timeing screws by the same amount? I.e. all in by 1/4 turn?

 

[JohnR725]

So I looked at the video a couple of times each time way way too much spacing. If you look at my reference PDF over coils are supposed to be much much closer to the regulator pins.

So movable banking pins and how to tell if they've been adjusted? So ideally on your watches you should be checking your escapement functions and your safety functions which I assume everyone is doing correct? This would actually fall under asking a new question of how do I adjust and check my escapement?

Then I'm not sure if it's an optical illusion so I'm attaching a second image of the balance wheel. Typically any time you work on watches that have screws On the balance usually pocket watches always check that you have pairs and that their the same. Usually more worried about pairs because one might fallout for instance. Then the screw that I was concerned about because it doesn't look like it's where it's supposed to be doesn't appear to match its counterpart on the other side. That may be why it's out someone is attempting to balance them which is not quite the right way to do this.

[JohnR725]

The amplitude has changed a tiny bit 340 versus 215 what happened? Then can we get a image of the scope mode?

Then start with a pair of screws one on each side I would go for the ones on the arm as they look like they might be out to for any way. I would turn them in one full Turn each and see what happens.

[p2n]

Lots of interesting observations - I'll disassemble the watch again tonight, clean and get photos of the missing views.

I'll have a read of my D de Carle book and read up on escapement adjusting then post a new question on that

 

[p2n]

21 minutes ago, JohnR725 said:

The amplitude has changed a tiny bit 340 versus 215 what happened? Then can we get a image of the scope mode?

 

Nothing should have changed....

A new DD trace (a little bit noisy - as I mentioned still setting up the watch holder/mic assembly)

 

The only difference is the original DD trace was done on the first wind after replacing the mainspring and reassembling it.

[BUSAKAZ]

So I looked at the video a couple of times each time way way too much spacing. If you look at my reference PDF over coils are supposed to be much much closer to the regulator pins.
So movable banking pins and how to tell if they've been adjusted? So ideally on your watches you should be checking your escapement functions and your safety functions which I assume everyone is doing correct? This would actually fall under asking a new question of how do I adjust and check my escapement?
Then I'm not sure if it's an optical illusion so I'm attaching a second image of the balance wheel. Typically any time you work on watches that have screws On the balance usually pocket watches always check that you have pairs and that their the same. Usually more worried about pairs because one might fallout for instance. Then the screw that I was concerned about because it doesn't look like it's where it's supposed to be doesn't appear to match its counterpart on the other side. That may be why it's out someone is attempting to balance them which is not quite the right way to do this.

John I think the regulator pins look ok they don’t look to far apart for a pocket watch, the boot style regulator’s are closer but are more common on wrist watches.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[praezis]

John is right, the pins are much too far apart, and that distance can easily cause 200s/d slow.
Breguet hairsprings - other than flat hairsprings - must not have any visible gap between pin and blade, just sufficient space to avoid binding. This is a general rule, stated in any book that mentions Breguet coils.

Frank

[p2n]

If the pins are too far apart, how would you adjust them? They don't look to be adjustable and bending them would result in them being non-parallel.

Just checked the timing in the size positions with my Mk1 Mic/watch holder (see WOS thread) pre-disassembly:

Position  Rate  Amp   Beat Err
DD        -220  220   2.0
DU        -216  217   1.7
PU        -184  167   2.9
PR        -251  159   2.3
PL        -300  174   2.4
PD        -458  148   3.0

Full traces on the google photo link above

 

 

[BUSAKAZ]

If the pins are too far apart, how would you adjust them? They don't look to be adjustable and bending them would result in them being non-parallel.
Just checked the timing in the size positions with my Mk1 Mic/watch holder (see WOS thread) pre-disassembly:

Position  Rate  Amp   Beat ErrDD        -220  220   2.0DU        -216  217   1.7PU        -184  167   2.9PR        -251  159   2.3PL        -300  174   2.4PD        -458  148   3.0

Full traces on the google photo link above
 
 

That’s why I think they are ok,


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[JohnR725]

If you look at the PDF I attached previously you see for over coil type hairsprings the pins are supposed to be really really close. But if you read enough books enough references and look at enough watches then black and white rules do not necessarily exist.

So we also look at the quality of the watch and when it was made. The pins themselves look to be non-bendable and as long as their parallel is the way the watch was designed. Theoretically today we know it's wrong but that was the way the watch was made. Sometimes the pins are more flexible you can bend them they won't be parallel but the hairspring doesn't move around enough to be a problem usually but it does depend on the watch.