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Staking set with no press/clamp device


omx5o

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26 minutes ago, BUSAKAZ said:


Who said there is only one way, in my eyes there is two,friction fit or turn the staff off that’s it.

It was the right staff just not a genuine one, I would never force a staff out basically that’s what you are doing and making the hole larger and as the staff is harder material than the balance arm there is a good possibility of distortion which will cause problems in itself.


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I recently replaced a staff on an Elgin 8 day aircraft clock with my method, and the rivet shoulder sheared off cleanly with the lightest tap of my hammer. No damage to the balance wheel at all. If you damage the wheel with this method then you're not using the tool properly, which isn't the fault of the tool. BTW, I use this method all the time with no issues at all with riveted staffs, the elgin is just a recent example. 

Stating that the only way to remove a RIVETED staff is by using a lathe is indeed stating there is only one way. Friction staffs are different, much less  common, and not what what I'm talking about. If the staff removing tool doesn't suit you, by all means do it the way you want, but the whole "my way or the highway" attitude isn't being helpful to the OP as this thread is supposed to be. 

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I recently replaced a staff on an Elgin 8 day aircraft clock with my method, and the rivet shoulder sheared off cleanly with the lightest tap of my hammer. No damage to the balance wheel at all. If you damage the wheel with this method then you're not using the tool properly, which isn't the fault of the tool. BTW, I use this method all the time with no issues at all with riveted staffs, the elgin is just a recent example. 
Stating that the only way to remove a RIVETED staff is by using a lathe is indeed stating there is only one way. Friction staffs are different, much less  common, and not what what I'm talking about. If the staff removing tool doesn't suit you, by all means do it the way you want, but the whole "my way or the highway" attitude isn't being helpful to the OP as this thread is supposed to be. 

Each to there own I guess


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2 hours ago, khunter said:

I'm not sure where you got your staff, but if you had to resize it, it was the wrong staff to begin with. I've used the K&D staff remover for years with absolutely zero problems. It may be preferable to turn off a rivet shoulder on a lathe, but...

A: Not everyone has a watch lathe, especially a beginner as the OP stated he is, and 

B: Using a lathe to turn it off requires great skill, and much more damage can be done with a slip of a graver.

Everyone has their own preferred method to do things, but stating there is only "one way" is a bit presumptuous. 

  in most lathe related trades,   running a lathe is a 4 year aprentiship.  vin

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Certainly appreciate all the help on this, thanks. The Hamilton will be going in a drawer for safe keeping. Once I've got my confidence up I'll disassemble just to confirm with certainty that it's definitely a broken staff. In the longer term I'll be keeping an eye out for a good staking set, sounds like a handy tool anyway. Very much looking forward to eventually getting it cleaned and running again. At the moment it's in a bit of a state with a chip in the dial, grime etc, but I guess that's part of the fun.

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At “school” the staking of riveted staffs is highly discouraged.

There are many ways to skin a cat and God knows that we’re always running into situations where we don’t have the specific tool to apply the optimal procedure and yet we end up sorting things out well.

Even if the OP is beginning, it is important that he is aware of some of those basic procedures. His balance wheel may not be that valuable that he can experiment and learn even if it means that he will have to replace it... or he will be thankful to know that not everyone recommends staking it off, especially without any prior experience. He would then send it somewhere just to get staff off and move on with his repair.

I would tone things here way down. This is a place for everyone to chime in even for those of us with less experience than others.

I’m delighted to invest my time trying to sort things out with anyone open minded and appreciative. Won’t spend a second with anyone that rides a high horse and is there just pointing out how wrong we are.

Cheers it’s Friday!

[emoji482]






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If you consider getting a K&D remover, make sure that you measure the distance from the staking table and bottom of the arm. There are different height tools for different height staking sets. There are also smaller punches, with a smaller, tapered end to the tool, for bracelet watches. Old style K&D 600 series, and probably before take the 7/8" models. Model 18 and up take the 1 1/8" models. This according to the K&D staking tool booklet. Good luck.





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If you consider getting a K&D remover, make sure that you measure the distance from the staking table and bottom of the arm. There are different height tools for different height staking sets. There are also smaller punches, with a smaller, tapered end to the tool, for bracelet watches. Old style K&D 600 series, and probably before take the 7/8" models. Model 18 and up take the 1 1/8" models. This according to the K&D staking tool booklet. Good luck.


Hi all,

I saw this discussion over K&D staff removal tool versions and wanted to add a few words from my experience.

About a year ago I bought myself a rusty old staking set that I managed to get in decent shape. Just to find that I was missing the staff removal tool... So I went ahead and bought one from Uncle Larry, just to find that it is of the shorter kind that leaves a lot of air in the staking tool.

But... and I’m not really sure if this is intended or just a bit of fluke but using a stump with a suitable hole size on the staking plate will raise the position for the balance wheel enough to make it all work out fine.

On the operation of the tool, my assumption is that the clamping of the balance wheel very close to the staff is what makes this work. This clamping will effectively ”focus” all the force when tapping to the weakest point i.e. the rivet and break this without any damage to the wheel. Things can go wrong of course bIMG_0507.JPGIMG_0508.JPGut it has worked fine several times for me now which can’t be considered too bad for a beginner and should encourage others to try (on something less valuable)

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22 hours ago, BUSAKAZ said:

It was the right staff just not a genuine one, I would never force a staff out basically that’s what you are doing and making the hole larger and as the staff is harder material than the balance arm there is a good possibility of distortion which will cause problems in itself.

Absolutely agreed.
Also a staff remover cannot support the spoke securely (see picture)! Punching out will work fine until you get your first distorted hole by a too thick rivetting (I did). Then you will be cured.Unruhmax.jpg.eff0c26ad05063663fdbc96f7bdefb7c.jpg

On 6.4.2018 at 1:44 PM, khunter said:

A: Not everyone has a watch lathe, especially a beginner as the OP stated he is, and 

B: Using a lathe to turn it off requires great skill, and much more damage can be done with a slip of a graver.

A: will a beginner have to change a balance staff??

B: Turning will be without any risk, if you remove the hub, not the rivet. With a cross slide also slipping is not possible.

Frank

Edited by praezis
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23 hours ago, omx5o said:

Certainly appreciate all the help on this, thanks. The Hamilton will be going in a drawer for safe keeping. Once I've got my confidence up I'll disassemble just to confirm with certainty that it's definitely a broken staff. In the longer term I'll be keeping an eye out for a good staking set, sounds like a handy tool anyway. Very much looking forward to eventually getting it cleaned and running again. At the moment it's in a bit of a state with a chip in the dial, grime etc, but I guess that's part of the fun.

  very good idea!  once you are comfortable with removing and installing a balance,  get a parts watch.  vin

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Not sure where you got the image but it is not the image of the K&D remover, not accurate at all, and the OP IS a beginner which was what the whole topic was anyway.

This topic is becoming toxic, almost as bad as lubrication and cleaning solutions. There is more than one way to remove a staff, plain and simple, and although one way may be preferred, it's not gospel.

Im done with this debate, everyone have a good day.

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A: will a beginner have to change a balance staff??
B: Turning will be without any risk, if you remove the hub, not the rivet. With a cross slide also slipping is not possible.
Frank

Thank you I thought I was going mad.


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I like the idea of using a cross-slide. However, one of those will probably cost a lot more than one might pay for their lathe setup. I'd like to have one, believe me. I've kept my eye out for a decent one for a nearer to bargain price, but so far I haven't found it. I do have a cross slide on my Unimat SL1000. Maybe that would work for removing staffs? Of course then I'd have to spend hundreds of dollars on the collet-holding spindle accessory. It's always something.

BTW, while going through book, "Staking Tools - And How to Use Them", I saw that they suggest it's safer to turn off a bit of the collet shoulder in order to get a shallower/stronger graver in position to cut off the rivet. They mention the dangers of using a steeper graver without doing so. I'll try that next time. Either that or I'll use my K&D remover. Most of the time this tool has served its purpose well for me. But that was after I learned to issue a smarter tap to the punch. It's like you have to sneak up on it a bit. Cheers.

 

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