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Seiko Elnix Lift Angle

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Hi out there.

I recently got my hands on a Seiko Elnix I won on yahoo Japan Auctions. Only $30.00 + S&H !  Right now it seems to run very well.

Does anyone know the lift angle(s) on this watch ? There are 2 Elnix calibres to my knowledge, 0702 & 0703. I contacted Seiko Japan but they have nothing on the watch due to it's age (So they say).

I also contacted Lepsi & someplace else with no results.

I'd like to put the watch on my timegrapher to see the overall health of it.

If anyone out there knows, please let me know !  

Thanks ! 

 

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An interesting question indeed!

This is speculation on my part as I don't actually know, but I don't think that "lift angle" has quite the same meaning on these balance wheel electronics as it does on conventional mechanical movements.

In a conventional mechanical movement energy is delivered to the balance from the escape wheel, via the pallet fork and impulse pin. The lift angle is the angle of arc through which the balance wheel rotates whilst it is receiving energy from the pallet, or the angle of rotation in which the impulse pin is in contact with the pallet fork (same thing).

In an electronic balance wheel movement the power goes the other way. Energy is supplied to the balance wheel by the energised coils acting on the wheel mounted magnets. The balance transfers this energy to the pallet fork which then pushes round the teeth on the escape wheel thus delivering energy into the wheel train. If you compare the escape wheel from your Elnix to one from a conventional mechanical you will see that the teeth are a completely different shape to allow for the reversing of the direction of power transfer.

You could argue that "lift angle" still has the same meaning as it is still the angle of rotation of the balance wheel through which energy is being transfered between the balance and the escape wheel. However, whether or not it makes the correct set of sounds for a timing machine to make sense of......???

I would try it out and see what it says. I suspect that it will be able to give you meaningful data for beat rate, beat error, and daily rate, but I'm not sure that I would have a lot of confidence in the amplitude reading. Even if it did give you accurate amplitude data, does it actually have the same significance as for a pure mechanical?

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To measure lift angle it's assumed it's a lever escapement.  As it's not going to hurt the timing machine you can put the watch on it. As long as there's a ticking sound you Probably can get a rate but anything beyond that I doubt.

Doesn't seem to be any tech sheets out there not that they don't exist they just aren't popping out did find this unfortunately nothing on the timing machine.

https://adventuresinamateurwatchfettling.com/2017/05/13/and-now-for-something-completely-different-the-seiko-elnix-electronic-watch/

Then I would be curious about the price if you get really obsessed with wanting to do amplitude this will do it for you

https://www.witschi.com/en/group-of-devices/measurement-of-mechanical-watches/WisioScope S/WisioScope S.html

 

.

 

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I read Martin's article on the Elnix last month & it's good. Thanks though. The WisioScope is interesting but I'd hate to ask the price on it. Maybe I will anyway.

I know I can put it on the timegrapher without doing any harm, but I was just hoping to get the lift angle.

Maybe Mark will tune in & can help ?

Thanks guys !

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Lift angle only work if the waveform matches a mechanical watch. PDF below will help you understand this. Starting on page 5 and  page 6 explains how amplitude is measured. If you waveform doesn't look right at least to the timing machine you're not going to get the amplitude. The rate is easy it just needs to trigger off something in it basically blacks out everything else. But for amplitude you have to have a clear signal of the right type.

https://www.witschi.com/assets/files/sheets/Test and measuring technology mechanical watches.pdf

Then if you really need to have the lift angle and providing the timing machine displays an amplitude which I seriously doubt but in case it does follow the procedure in the video. It really does work well for mechanical watches.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Xgcck692js

 

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Not having a Seiko to test I used a 9154 basically something similar. So the timing machine gives all those nice features that you wanted the rate the beat and amplitude. The lift angle is whatever the last watch previously I measured. Then a section from the witschi manual for this machine showing the oscilloscope mode. At around 7.5 ms You'll notice the waveform showing where lock occurs you see a dashed line colored red telling us where the machine thinks lock is occurring. On older watches were the escapement isn't quite as clear cut as a modern escapement I've noticed it moves around a little bit. Then the other thing the timing machines doing is it basically has a window where it perceives this will occur as opposed to looking for a really loud sound which typically is what happens when the escapement locks up and the pallet fork crashes into the banking pin.

So when you look at the waveforms of the electric watch it doesn't exactly resemble a mechanical watch. The timing machine still guesses where it perceives lock occurs and you'll notice the amplitude varies depending upon where it guesses. So most of the time it's in the 240 range but you also see a 77 and 143.

So the timing machine works for rate but on a non-mechanical lever escapement watch amplitude is not correct.

http://www.ranfft.de/cgi-bin/bidfun-db.cgi?10&ranfft&0&2uswk&ETA-ESA_9154

 

http://www.ranfft.de/cgi-bin/bidfun-db.cgi?10&ranfft&0&2uswk&Seiko_3702B

 

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ew-1.JPG

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The particular microphone that I use with that machine is a full automatic microphone and then it does all the wonderful calculations for multiposition timing. So this particular movement is in a case with no back and no cell strap. I was running it with a external power supply which did not like it when the microphone rotated as leads came off. So if I can find a cell strap I'll run multiposition timing and move the regulator.

Then the service manual's interesting in that there's nothing on the timing machine the only reference to amplitude is by physically looking. Then a minor confusion perhaps there is two separate manuals one for the 9150 and one for the 9154 the difference is the frequency of the watches running at. 21,600 versus 28,800. So the particular 9154 manual I'm looking at is basically just a Upgrade for the 9150 manual. So when it comes the amplitude it basically says due to the high frequency and the peculiar shape of the balance it's difficult to the check the amplitude. Then it states that the dial up position should be on the higher limit of 270 in the lower limit of 200 pendent down position. Then in the 9150 manual they visually tell you how to do the amplitude I've attached an image.

Then beat we get obsessed with this in mechanical watches and clocks because they impulse in two directions. So I decided to expand our discussion to include early electric timepieces. So for this example because both manuals had timing machine printouts I'm including the Hamilton 500 and the Elgin 725. Both of these are electromechanical they both only impulse in one direction. Both manuals are obsessed with getting the contacts in the right position. In both manuals the sections I've attached are only concerned with the line going in the right direction. Basically the watch is supposed to keep time whether the line wobbles around as considerable spacing it's irrelevant. So I thought we would expand our knowledge because this doesn't exactly apply to the transistor switched watch because they impulsive both directions. But it is conceivable that the balance wheel alignment is not symmetrical depending uponOther things and the manual doesn't cover any of those things. I think it assumes in the case the 9150 series that you're not going to be rotating the collet and playing with the beat.

amp-9150 - 9154.JPG

Elgin 725 time.JPG

Ham 500 time.JPG

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