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New to this forum - low amplitude on a Seiko 6r15c


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Hi, 

I'm new here, so hello.  I've pretty much no experience of watch repair but I'm a watch fan and have a few in the collection.

I've been looking at a timegrapher output for a work colleague for a Sarb 33 where I was advised that the watch shortly after purchase about 1.5 years ago started to lose time.  This week I put it on the timegrapher and found the following:

1. Initially -20 sec/day on the rate,  2. very low amplitude which ranged from 120-190, but mainly hovers around 150 3. If I change the orientation from dial up to say dial-side the drop in amplitude and rate is extreme. 4. The lift amplitude is 52 degrees 5. The beat error was good at around 0.2 6. The watch was fully wound

I adjusted the rate lever to speed the watch up, however the rate is not constant, I think there is a balance issue, perhaps it's been dropped and the balance staff is bent maybe.  In my view currently it's pointless to regulate and the amplitude is so far from normal this needs to be fixed first.

Does anybody have a view on this, I did read on some forums issues with 6R15C movements.?

Can I get a replacement balance assembly?  Any ideas where from?

Cheers

James

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Hi James and welcome, Why do you need a new balance assy ? Is the balance running all over the place or something? If not then give the watch a clean and service de-mag etc. Attention to the escape wheel , balance and pallets. You may well find that cures the problem. Will cost nothing for a start !!. Good wishes, Mike.

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Being new to watch repair it's easy to jump to conclusions as to what the problem may or may not be it's best to start at the beginning? So when was the watch last serviced? Then along those lines how old is it?

Then I probably wouldn't recommend this as a beginning watch to learn cleaning oiling etc. but just in case here's the tech sheet.

https://www.seikoserviceusa.com/uploads/datasheets/6R15B_C.pdf

 

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Hi John/Mike,

Thanks for the replies.

I think you're right and it wasn't my intention to fully service the watch as it's out of my level of expertise by a long way.  Adjusting the timing is one thing but a full disassembly / reassembly is a no go.

The watch was bought about 1.5 years ago and right from the beginning wasn't running well (it was slow).  This gradually worsened over time up until the point where we are now. 

It's fair to say I made the situation worst by adjusting the rate, however the amplitude was very low so in my view there is a inherent issue with the escapement affecting the watch timing.  The rate isn't consistent and changes wildly in different orientations (by minutes not seconds).

Thanks for the service PDF, I'll study that.

I have a 6R15c myself in a SARB 65 and the timegrapher results are much different on the amplitude, it's about 230-240 degrees so I know this is a significant problem where I noted the lowest amplitude on the SARB 33 go as low as 122 degrees.

I'm getting the watch back on Monday so I'll check the balance assembly further.  I'm not planning on taking it apart but inspecting it to see if there is anything there.

Regards

James

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It would be really nice to have a picture of the timing machine results. Then multiple positions on the timing machine is nice like typically we see dial down it's the easiest then rotate the watch sideways so the crown is in some position like crown down perhaps. Or rotate is the position where you see the real wild timing and get us a picture of all of this. We might see something that you don't and it will help to understand what the watches doing.

Usually on low amplitude is the power from the mainspring isn't getting to the escapement. So changing the balance wheel playing with the escapement doesn't help if the lubrication has disintegrated and is too much friction going through the gear train. This is why I asked how old the watch was and it would be nice to know what service history. Unfortunately lubrication does not last forever.

Then page 18 of the PDF shape of the hairspring. Verify your hairspring still looks the way it's supposed to be if you're not careful moving the regulator bad things can occur which could result in the wild timing usually doesn't result in low amplitude unless they hairspring is rubbing on something that it's not supposed but that will show up in on the timing machine.

Then in order of doing things if the amplitude is below 200° getting it up to and over 200 is the priority. Everything worsens as the amplitude drops.

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Thanks for the speedy response John, I'll upload some photos as you have asked when I get the watch on Monday.  As far as I know, the watch was purchased in late 2016 or early 2017.  I can't be sure but it's fairly new and so it has never been serviced.  

Do you think it's worth removing the balance cock to check the hair spring?

 

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11 hours ago, James202010 said:

Do you think it's worth removing the balance cock to check the hair spring?

Not that it's worth, is a necessary step to confirm that something is wrong (or not) there.

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12 hours ago, James202010 said:

Do you think it's worth removing the balance cock to check the hair spring?

For some watch related problems it's best to leave the problem item in the watch.  On page 18 there showing you the view from looking down at the balance wheel and hairspring in the watch yours should look similar. Think about currently were in diagnostic phase let's see what's wrong with the watch before we start taking things apart where conceivably you could introduce new problems.

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I need to make a clarification about my post above, I was talking as a general rule only.

By no means I recommend that the OP (which has stated to have no experience whatsoever in watch repair) should take apart the movement and/or try to repair it himself. The watch should be given only to a reputable professional. If the cost quoted for repair is excessive an alternative could be to sell it disclosing the issue (around $200), and a new one be bought ($300 or so). Incidentally, the difference is close to the price of a SII NE15 (same as 6R15) replacement mov.t.

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Do take the time to take some pictures of the timegrapher results. Interesting if this watch is of recent manufacture. Though adjustments are made at the balance assembly it's best not to obsess to much within that area. A chipped or cracked jewel within the "Train" allowing excessive side shake would lead to a dramatic loss of power

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Thanks for the suggestions, I'll be posting timegrapher results tomorrow after work.  

I did suggest to my work colleague that it might be best to sell it "as working" with "timing issues" and then use the proceeds to get a new watch, particularly as a service would be equal to the value of the watch.

I think it's been dropped or otherwise damaged so it could be a cracked jewel somewhere along the train so adjusting the rate has probably exacerbated the problem.   

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Hi Gents,

Attached are some photos of the timegrapher output, I have not tried to amend the rate again yet although I checked the lift amplitude for the 6R15 and should be 53 degrees so I changed that on the timegrapher.  This made not difference to the result though.

I started dial up and then rotated to dial side with the crown in the up position.  As you can see the rate drops significantly by doing this which is beyond any norm.

Thanks

6R15C Low Amp Dial Side.jpg

6R15C Low Amp ial Side.jpg

6R15C Low Amp1 (1).jpg

6R15C Low Amp1 (5).jpg

6R15C Low Amp1 (6).jpg

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Hopefully JohnR725 will pick up on this. He really knows his stuff and has helped me out in the past. I see you have the same timegrapher as me. These cheap machines are ok but have there limitations. From what I can see..The Beat error is much higher than your machine is indicating. Can't see any sign of a bent pivot or any lack of lubricant. My guess is you have a wobbling gear somewhere due to jewel damage but it's only a guess? Anyway from the readings as observed, correcting the beat error or or regulating, is pointless until a regular dotted line across the screen is achieved.
The movement needs to be stripped down and looked at. Unless you can do the work yourself, it's probably better to dispose of the watch.

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So before I answer the question clarification watch belongs to somebody else and your beginner. This is definitely not a beginner's watch and proceeding beyond this point things get complicated. But you have a question and I will try to answer it.

So timing machines don't always give clear answers. It be nice if magically the screen the pop up and tell us exactly what the problem is that they don't yet a very likely never will. So the timing machine has done its job and told us you have a problem watch.

First before we get to the problem the watch was purchased a new a year and a half ago but how old is the watch? People forget even if they go to a jewelry store and purchased the watch brand-new how long as it been sitting there and before that in the warehouse conceivably before that from the manufacture even brand-new watches could be several years old. Then there's environmental things like condensation. People claim they never get their watch wet but they take it in the shower with them to wash dishes moisture in the watch is not good for lubrication. So a variety of environmental thing moisture heat being dropped on the floor affect new watches and even old.

Then if you look at the data sheets from the watch companies when using a timing machine certain things to be observed. For a fully wound up watch it's allowed to run for a little bit 15 to 60 minutes just to settle down. Then changing positions I know Omega has some very exacting specifications which conveniently I'am not looking at but at least 30 seconds. When changing positions no matter what the watche is going to be a little unstable newer watches much better than old pocket watches. So you always get goofy results if you move the microphone really fast.

So timing machine I can go in multiple directions because I'm suspicious of something. First What jumps out is the amplitude it is way too low it is extremely unacceptable. With extremely low amplitude everything gets magnified or basically blown out of shape until it's up to at least 200 everything else is I'm going to be suspicious. But I'm going to ignore that and where we can see what looks like a reasonable trace it looks okay.

The beat is interesting that's not great but it's not bad it shouldn't be the reason for the problem. Except usually as amplitude drops the timing machine will show a greater and greater beat error and were not really seeing. The same as rotating from a dial position to a pendant position they hairspring sags you always get a little bit of beat error. My suspicious nature is the beat error looks too good for a watch in this condition if we can believe anything at all.

Now we get to the next phase of watch repair if this watch was being repaired. A really good physical examinations starting with the balance wheel. This is a major problem for beginners and all of us from time to time. It is really hard to see what we need to see some watches is almost impossible to see what we need to see and for beginners Is a major problem because you have no idea what you're looking for.

Then somewhere probably on the message board there should be a whole step-by-step how to proceed. Simplistically examine the balance wheel see how that looks complete disassembly examining everything is you go. By the way you did demagnetized the watch didn't you? Then I think it was suggested above basically a good overhaul and make sure the hairspring didn't get mutilated when you're moving the regulator around.

 

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Well, things have taken a turn for the worst.

I was adjusting the beat error leaver and then the movement completely stopped.  I was trying to get the beat error and rate straightened out but 

The balance wheel didn't seem to be sitting correctly either.

I had no choice but to remove the balance from the watch to see if something looked obviously wrong or at least reseat it.

I can see the pivots at the top and bottom of the balance wheel fairly clearly so that doesn't seem to be a problem, although I I'll have to go whole hog and take the movement out of the case.  The hair spring looks ok too so it could be interference as you say. 

 

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1 minute ago, digginstony said:

With a bit more thought, it could be the hair spring is hitting something as the fault seems to periodically recover?

One of my problems when looking was which picture  corresponds to which position how much time has occurred between pictures etc. But  where we can see the trace  it appears straight  it's not  bumping into something.. Even the escapement is functioning correctly because the trace  looks fine.

So it's not clear when looking at the pictures whether the changing is occurring because the watch was physically moved or whether it just changes all by itself. So have a really nice when photographing  to put the watch in a position let it settle down  then photograph  so we don't see positional changes screwing up what were trying to look at.

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2 minutes ago, James202010 said:

Well, things have taken a turn for the worst.

I was adjusting the beat error leaver and then the movement completely stopped.  I was trying to get the beat error and rate straightened out but 

The balance wheel didn't seem to be sitting correctly either.

I had no choice but to remove the balance from the watch to see if something looked obviously wrong or at least reseat it.

I can see the pivots at the top and bottom of the balance wheel fairly clearly so that doesn't seem to be a problem, although I I'll have to go whole hog and take the movement out of the case.  The hair spring looks ok too so it could be interference as you say. 

Having fun?

If you have access to electron microscope it might help?  You'll notice my warped sense of humor right now as you're proceeding in the wrong direction  but if you're having fun it's okay.

So I really like the part about having no choice I like that  I actually like that a lot. 

So  I love enthusiasm in newbies but you do need to slow down  unless you're having fun then that flies out the window it doesn't help for watch repair though but..

So  depending upon how you were moving the regulator and stud they should be fine balance wheel is protected against minor shocks it should be fine nothing probably needs to be re-seated.  The problem with the modern regulation system is it's great for manufacturers it's super for making all sorts of extreme adjustments and if you're not careful it is super easy to screw everything up and the watch will come to a stop. Then if you get really creative you can actually pop some of the pieces off I've seen broken watches for sale on eBay that the regulator was hanging there.

When you get through having fun with the watch and get the balance wheel back in  hopefully put the roller jewel on the right side of the fork?  Then we need a close-up picture looking straight down on the top of the balance wheel in the watch so we can see how badly the hairspring is bad up and give you a clue where the levers are supposed to go.  It really is quite amazing how far you can adjust those where the not supposed to be.

 

 

 

 

 

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One of my problems when looking was which picture  corresponds to which position how much time has occurred between pictures etc. But  where we can see the trace  it appears straight  it's not  bumping into something.. Even the escapement is functioning correctly because the trace  looks fine.
So it's not clear when looking at the pictures whether the changing is occurring because the watch was physically moved or whether it just changes all by itself. So have a really nice when photographing  to put the watch in a position let it settle down  then photograph  so we don't see positional changes screwing up what were trying to look at.
If the hairspring was touching, and I understand correctly, one may see a scatter of the trace and a tendency to try and recover

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Yes, I like your sense of humor, it made me laugh.  Electron Microscope :-)

Yes I rushed in without thinking it through, but at least it's not an expensive watch in the grand scheme of things.  Plus I've given my colleague a loan (maybe longer than I thought) replacement but it is very interesting just how small these parts are.  I didn't even think about the pivot hole under the balance wheel, I had to refer to the manufacturers guide.

Nothing has broken off from what I can see and the spring looks good, however reseating it will need the movement out of the case because I can't see the bottom pivot to align it and getting the roller jewel aligned was also something I hadn't considered so I'm glad you mentioned this.

Thinking about the start of this, I think I did push the adjustment lever just a bit too far.  It's like 1mm is a mile for a watch movement.

 

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21 hours ago, digginstony said:

 I see you have the same timegrapher as me. These cheap machines are ok but have there limitations. From what I can see..The Beat error is much higher than your machine is indicating. 

Be reassured that the cheap machine is spot on in this case, showing an extremely poor amplitude. The small beat error is totally believable, as isn't related to the above, and the end result is consistent with what the OP is telling us, poor timekeeping, timing can't be regulated, etc.
Now in my experience with these Seiko, the most likely culprit is always the balance assembly, as in distorted hairspring, bent pivots, etc. Fact is, a good 6R15 even if 10 years old, totally dry or strongly magnetized will never behave like that.

Anyway, as mentioned above by all of us, a beginner insisting on fighting this type of trouble can only make it worse. Better to stop now as long this can be repaired at a reasonable cost. Even if this is not a very expensive watch, why break things when one can learn on an old 7002 / 7S26 Seiko which will cost like $25.

 

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23 minutes ago, digginstony said:

airspring was touching,

Thanks for reminding me  my brain is running slow today.. If they hairspring is Touching bumping  it shows up with a timing machine..If it's permanently bent like rubbing on the underside of the balance bridge and then it would show up as a timing issue..  But look at all the traces it's running slow  extremely slow  bumping touching rubbing hairsprings  are equivalent to shortening the hairspring it runs fast usually very fast..

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Thanks for reminding me  my brain is running slow today.. If they hairspring is Touching bumping  it shows up with a timing machine..If it's permanently bent like rubbing on the underside of the balance bridge and then it would show up as a timing issue..  But look at all the traces it's running slow  extremely slow  bumping touching rubbing hairsprings  are equivalent to shortening the hairspring it runs fast usually very fast..
Many thanks for advice. Scattering when not related to magnetism I've found on a watch seemed to be caused by severe wear to the escapement wheel ie.. rounded teeth, which changing the wheel cured the issue.

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Be reassured that the cheap machine is spot on in this case, showing an extremely poor amplitude. The small beat error is totally, because it's not (always) related to the above, but the result is consistent with what the OP is telling us, poor timekeeping, time can't be regulated, etc.
Now in my experience with these Seiko, the most likely culprit is always the balance assembly, as in distorted hairspring, bent pivots, etc. Fact is, a good 6R15 even if 10 years old, totally dry or strongly magnetized will never behave like that.
Anyway, as mentioned above by all of us, a beginner insisting on fighting this type of trouble can only make it worse. Better to stop now as long this can be repaired with a reasonable. Even if this is not a very expensive watch, why break things when you can learn on an old 7002 / 7S26 watch which will cost  like $25.
 
Expensive lesson for the OP [emoji17]

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