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Choosing a balance staff

Pip

By Pip
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Pip WRT Addict

Pip

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Hello to the little den of experts!

I have a gorgeous Waltham Marquis (from 1914 according to the lists) that I bought recently as a non runner. When I got the back off (screw back not pop off back, that took me far too long to realise!) I soon found out why - the balance was loose. Taking it out, it looks like the pivots on the staff are done for.

40796845982_b4d638ecae_m_d.jpg40838697081_141bb6facb_m_d.jpg

So, how does one go about choosing a replacement staff? From what I have researched I believe I need a Waltham 4860 or 4861 staff and looking at the pictures I suspect it's 4861? Am I barking up the right tree? Is there a good website to order this from (I am in the UK) and is there an equivalent? (Making a new balance staff myself is probably a year ahead of me yet but I'll get there eventually). Here is an excerpt of the list I found which is on ofrei.com 

39944408645_7c5375899d_z_d.jpg

 

Thanks in advance peeps!

 

Oh, and just to make you smile... on my initial inspection of the watch it wouldn't seem to take a wind. So I had a look and saw a Safety Barrel - my first one of these!

40130170694_e7ffff4daf_m_d.jpg

Aha, let's investigate then, could be a broken mainspring, or perhaps it has come unhooked as I believe that's a common problem on safety barrels. Let's pop the top off and see what is happening...

25967339397_f53a6805a6_m_d.jpg

Oh! That explains it...

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Pip WRT Addict

Pip

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Calibre is 1908 isn’t it? Or is that something different? That’s why I showed the ofrei page but it listed two options against 1908 as shown in the earlier picture.

 

To get to 1908 I went into the listing site I use and it shows me the following data:

8df9dcdbf72dbb53c0fa1caeddcf7e5b.jpg&key=614bd43ea78b771c8b5e00d70f6dbf000d89960fb90912844104002e63d699b2

 

If I’m doing something wrong please shout, this is new territory for me.

 

 

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jdrichard Distinguished Member

jdrichard

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I just started making Balance Staffs as i got sick of ordering them and paying 20us plus shipping for a small piece of blue steel. So far successful . Took about three months of using a lathe and ta da.


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khunter WRT Addict

khunter

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Both the 4860 or 4861 are friction fit, easier to replace, but you need special stakes and stumps for your staking set to do it correctly. There are also 3 different pivot sizes I believe, which means you need to know that as well. Marquis is the "caliber" in this case, 1908 is the model. Kind of like car models, Camaro is the model, SS would be the grade or caliber. 

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Pip WRT Addict

Pip

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Both the 4860 or 4861 are friction fit, easier to replace, but you need special stakes and stumps for your staking set to do it correctly. There are also 3 different pivot sizes I believe, which means you need to know that as well. Marquis is the "caliber" in this case, 1908 is the model. Kind of like car models, Camaro is the model, SS would be the grade or caliber. 

Thanks for the info, good to know. So just to be clear, is the 4860/1 the right choice? (I am verging toward the 4861 because of the shape of it).


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khunter WRT Addict

khunter

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The 4860 has a straight shoulder, the 61 has a tapered shoulder, you would probably have to remove the existing one to determine which one you need, as both were used in several different models and grades. Unfortunately the waltham book isn't more clear, but seeing as they made somewhere near 45 million watches over the years it's not too surprising. There is a book available online, I believe it's the K&D staking set manual, that shows the special stakes and stumps required to replace waltham friction staffs, the hub of the balance wheel can be damaged if you use the wrong tools (experience!)

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BUSAKAZ WRT Addict

BUSAKAZ

Posted
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Hello to the little den of experts!
I have a gorgeous Waltham Marquis (from 1914 according to the lists) that I bought recently as a non runner. When I got the back off (screw back not pop off back, that took me far too long to realise!) I soon found out why - the balance was loose. Taking it out, it looks like the pivots on the staff are done for.
40796845982_b4d638ecae_m_d.jpg&key=0467c470ef4f382a910c5b843ed9ccffa0d7792e885a7e6b9e120928f9e01dd240838697081_141bb6facb_m_d.jpg&key=cc4d48b910685831173d18312a2fa2cfc705cee2236209718c6e309d475c029c
So, how does one go about choosing a replacement staff? From what I have researched I believe I need a Waltham 4860 or 4861 staff and looking at the pictures I suspect it's 4861? Am I barking up the right tree? Is there a good website to order this from (I am in the UK) and is there an equivalent? (Making a new balance staff myself is probably a year ahead of me yet but I'll get there eventually). Here is an excerpt of the list I found which is on ofrei.com 
39944408645_7c5375899d_z_d.jpg&key=cbd9b69ecfa179314bb415332660af53d6cdfa4a5fca3111cc95150d69740125
 
Thanks in advance peeps!
 
Oh, and just to make you smile... on my initial inspection of the watch it wouldn't seem to take a wind. So I had a look and saw a Safety Barrel - my first one of these!
40130170694_e7ffff4daf_m_d.jpg&key=31bf30862f4a48267b3305e3860b577dd3526b55a9aa60dc8479c805781675a4
Aha, let's investigate then, could be a broken mainspring, or perhaps it has come unhooked as I believe that's a common problem on safety barrels. Let's pop the top off and see what is happening...
25967339397_f53a6805a6_m_d.jpg&key=054f9535b8c2085386c6777bd7b9096f84090205f3c63af898dbcccfe7a83709
Oh! That explains it...

You should see a blue collar on the staff witch indicates friction fit,it should be pivot 12 therefore it will be a Ronda 2525 and cousins sell them for about £6 I have used them and they are good.

Hope this helps
Kaz


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BUSAKAZ WRT Addict

BUSAKAZ

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You should see a blue collar on the staff witch indicates friction fit,it should be pivot 12 therefore it will be a Ronda 2525 and cousins sell them for about £6 I have used them and they are good.

Hope this helps
Kaz


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Sorry £4.50 plus post ;0


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khunter WRT Addict

khunter

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2 hours ago, BUSAKAZ said:


Sorry £4.50 plus post ;0


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Actually the collar is on the balance, not the staff, and I'm not so sure about the crossover between Ronda parts and the actual Waltham part 4860/61. The 2525 is the same supposedly as the 4860, which is the straight shoulder version, which is not so common. A 2523 is listed as the same as a 4861, which is more common, but it has a pivot of .10, which is not so common. There were 3 pivot sizes available, .10, .11, and .12..... .11 is probably the most common, but again not a given...

Here's the PDF of the Ronda list....

https://www.cousinsuk.com/PDF/categories/3437_Rondastaffs Number 2042 to 3130, Pages 21-30 NEW3.pdf

 

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Vacherin Member

Vacherin

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Posted
On 3/17/2018 at 12:34 AM, jdrichard said:

I just started making Balance Staffs as i got sick of ordering them and paying 20us plus shipping for a small piece of blue steel. So far successful . Took about three months of using a lathe and ta da.


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I know you used to be able to buy generic balance staffs that you turn down to size. Would be interesting to know how you make them. I'm still waiting to see someone make one on youtube using a bow. :D:D

 

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jdrichard Distinguished Member

jdrichard

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I know you used to be able to buy generic balance staffs that you turn down to size. Would be interesting to know how you make them. I'm still waiting to see someone make one on youtube using a bow. [emoji3][emoji3]
 

I did make a video making a balance staff. "jdrichard01" on YouTube. ....and no bow:)

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JohnR725 Distinguished Member

JohnR725

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Once you get your new balance staff a very important rule is to measure it and the original verify that they're both the same size. Often times replacement staffs are not the right size. Companies like bestfit deliberately made their staffs oversize that way you could reduce them to the proper size.

Then quite a few different pivots sizes so I've attached an image. Then somebody mentioned the special tools image attached for what they look like.

waltham - staff - tools.JPG

wal-staff.JPG

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BUSAKAZ WRT Addict

BUSAKAZ

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Once you get your new balance staff a very important rule is to measure it and the original verify that they're both the same size. Often times replacement staffs are not the right size. Companies like bestfit deliberately made their staffs oversize that way you could reduce them to the proper size.
Then quite a few different pivots sizes so I've attached an image. Then somebody mentioned the special tools image attached for what they look like.
5ac9ee35d5443_waltham-staff-tools.thumb.JPG.0e3b2894c94f0d0a844937a6a74862d7.JPG
wal-staff.thumb.JPG.943e6452b89a23593bf6246222b4360f.JPG

Indeed very true


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