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oldhippy

Economical watch tools (again)

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1 hour ago, oldhippy said:

I would not touch Chinese watch tools with a barge pole  

Your is just a prejudice, probably not backed up by much experience with them. As with everything, some are perfectly fine, while others are not. And we're here exactly to share and  discuss about what is what.

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37 minutes ago, jdm said:

Your is just a prejudice, probably not backed up by much experience with them. As with everything, some are perfectly fine, while others are not. And we're here exactly to share and  discuss about what is what.

From what I have found out about Chinese watch tools on the internet there a waste of money. If you want to have the best, you have to pay. What is the point of cheap and having the worry that the tool will be useless for the job it is intended for, it could cause unrepairable damage.  I have had 30 odd years experience working with good reliable tools.  

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On 3/10/2018 at 7:44 PM, oldhippy said:

From what I have found out about Chinese watch tools on the internet there a waste of money. If you want to have the best, you have to pay. What is the point of cheap and having the worry that the tool will be useless for the job it is intended for, it could cause unrepairable damage.  I have had 30 odd years experience working with good reliable tools.  

That is my point exactly, you're writing based on what you've read on the Internet, while I personally own and use daily many Chinese-made tools without any problem or breakage. Of course when there is no real alternative I'm happy to recommend against cheap or ineffective tools, once again disregarding their provenience.

For the matter at hand, a Chinese crystal press can be $20, a Swiss one $200. Both will work fine when used correctly. Now guess which one allows beginners with any budget to approach this hobby?

If you check out his videos, our site owner Mark Lovick never focuses on using expensive tools, he concentrates on practices and techniques, showing how the job is done by the person not the tool, and disseminate his knowledge without snobism or setting high prerequisites.

Anyway, I think we've had this discussion already, now as before we can agree to disagree.

 

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Ive a few Chinese tools, Oilers for instance, Ive cleaned up a bit, shaped for specific tasks, they are fine. Oil-pots, again- cheapo Chinese doing the job, cant really go wrong, can they, Cheapo oil-pots, but with Moebius synthetic oils in 'em!

Crystal-press, again a cheapo thing, might even be Indian, works well enough, I haven't broken it yet.

I did have bad experience with Chinese watch screwdrivers, Those were utter garbage, seen harder copper wire...

A*F screwdriver handles with Bergeon bits work out the most reasonable compromise rather than a full Bergeon set-up...

--A*F bits tend to chip/wear/break a bit easier than the Bergeon I found.

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9 hours ago, oldhippy said:

From what I have found out about Chinese watch tools on the internet there a waste of money. If you want to have the best, you have to pay. What is the point of cheap and having the worry that the tool will be useless for the job it is intended for, it could cause unrepairable damage.  I have had 30 odd years experience working with good reliable tools.  

 

Whilst i can't speak about watch tools, i do have issue with the "you want the best you have to pay" and the fact that you have solely taken advice "from the internet" and made this claim without having any experience of said "shit" tools your leveling you criticism at, in "general" yes you do get what you pay for, but there is always exceptions to the rule and it also goes the both ends of the scale/spectrum as well,(heard anyone use the term "overpriced junk"?).

To me there are tools more than "adequete" for a job to last you years/decades out there that are fairly middle or lower of the road price wise, then there's your "high end" stuff that's "supposed" to be the "best" and sometimes it is, it might be something built so well it still gets used 80+ years later, more than a lifetime of service or more.

But I can also point you to a video where a £25 Takstar microphone for a DSLR camera walks all over the RODE £300 mic it was tested against in sound quality, capture and range, so that is a "tool" (which it is to a videographer) that is 11.5 times less the price outperforming the "recognized industry standard" tool, TBH a lot of these companies are using their marketing strategies to target the "snobbery" that comes in ALL industries, because it works and makes them and their shareholders much more money, if we were mechanics we would be talking about Snap-on Tools right now, they Generally make pretty good stuff, but some of their stuff is outsourced shit with their name slapped on in( their welders for instance are made by cebora, a fairly shit brand in welding)

That's not to say that there isn't some cheap sh*t out there that isn't worth wasting your money on, but you need to take it on a case by case basis.

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You also have to remember that in recent years (10+) China became the factory for the world, just because you buy an American or German "branded" tool doesn't mean that they didn't outsource the production of said tool to China.

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This argument again!

Some Chinese tools are ok, and I do use them, but there's times when the quality just isn't up to scratch. The same applied to Indian tools. I can't be bothered repeating the story when a movement flew out of a Chinese movement holder. Not worth the risk when I can buy a quality Bergeon one which is far superior for about £15. Oh, and I destroyed a set of hands with a Chinese Presto hand lifter. I still use a Chinese crystal press and hand lifting levers, though both are mediocre.

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That is my point exactly, you're writing based on what you've read on the Internet, while I personally own and use daily many Chinese-made tools without any problem or breakage. Of course when there is no real alternative I'm happy to recommend against cheap or ineffective tools, once again disregarding their provenience.
Now for the matter at hand, a Chinese crystal press can be $20, a Swiss one $200. Both will work fine when used correctly. Now guess which one allows beginners with any budget to approach this hobby?
If you check out his videos, our site owner Mark Lovick never focuses on using expensive tools, he concentrates on practices and techniques, showing how the job is done by the person not the tool, and disseminate his knowledge without snobism or setting high prerequisites.
Anyway, I think we've had this discussion already, now as before we can agree to disagree.
 

I cut my teeth as an engineer in the aerospace industry and whilst I do not want to discuss the product I’ll just say it was cutting edge technology. I was trained, (and trained others) to design and produce my own job specific tools as they were not available off the shelf. With this in mind, a tool is judged as being appropriate for the job by whether or not it’s fit for purpose, not by the manufacturers badge or it’s origin.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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13 hours ago, weegaz22 said:

You also have to remember that in recent years (10+) China became the factory for the world, just because you buy an American or German "branded" tool doesn't mean that they didn't outsource the production of said tool to China.

sure, but its not the latitude and longitude where its made at that matters, its the market.  Its a big difference between a firm from the developed world opening a plant there and imposing strict QA (I've manufactured there, so yes its not easy) or even outsourcing and having it made to your design, materials and procedure with again rigid QA, than items made by a firm who sole reason for existing is to make as absolutely cheap as possible; To make it to the lowest possible price point.    Consider the iphone (i dislike apple but it is a consistently high quality product) vs the junk Harbor freight sells.   All form China, but with different QA and a different market objective.

There are also business and cultures aspects that make QA difficult there.  Its too lengthy to go into here but if have no experience manufacturing there, I suggest the book "Poorly Made in China" for a sense of it

The lack of quality of Chinese made tools is not a undeserved prejudice, its been the reality for decades.  I never touch the stuff, although by many accounts its improved.   Still, the quality is driven by the market and will be low if the customer is the budget tool seller not demanding or specifying or having good control quality.  Whats starting to happen is the Chinese are waking up to branding; all of sudden the manufacturer realizes they're a stakeholder in the quality and that developing a trusted brand is the key to increasing margins and building value in their businesses.   That's when the tool makers of developed world will have face their biggest challenge.  Without branding, the manufacture's marketing strategy there has largely a case of the race to the bottom, which is business if all you compete on is price.

Finally, a well made tool, from where ever is a treat to use vs the agony and frustration of a low quality item.  A beginner doesn't need it to be any more frustrating than it has to be and if doing this fun, its is imo a lot more enjoyable using good quality tools.

 

 

 

Edited by measuretwice

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Sure i can see where your coming from, but when large companies with lots of R&D behind them eventually outsource and go to china and have items made i do realise there is a QC check put in place, but it doesn't mean its always strictly followed unless there is a rep at that factory constantly watching as there has been batches of products where things did get inherently worse, and what has also been seen is that Chinese companies have used those well funded R&D based designs and made their own versions of the same products, albeit using slightly cheaper materials but still essentially stealing the companies IP. similar to where Chinese car makers were making SUV's that looked like the Range Rovers or BMW X5's as there was no real recourse or punishments for copyright infringement 

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Remind you gents that the topic at hand is not "any item or tool made in China", but watch tools specifically.

On that subject I can give as an example the small grinder that I'm using now. 

https://aliexpress.com/item/PROMOTION-low-pricce-Foredom-Polishing-machine-mini-polishing-motor-TM-2-mini-bench-lathe-jewelry/32711938167.html

  • It has a reasonable price, including the accessory kit (but one chuck key has the wrong size)
  • User manual makes sense and is readable.
  • Brushed motor, spares are included.
  • Good to have waterproof mains switch.
  • Base is holed to fast it to the bench.
  • Operates silently, the switched speed control is linear and effective.
  • Spins true, chucks are tight and grippy.

So, I'm happy with my purchase. It would be helpful to others to post real experiences of what is good and what is not, and why.
 



 

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I'm reminded of a video I recently watched on YouTube where someone bought a basic eta movement and a Chinese clone (I think it was the 2836). Out em on a timeographer and the clone actually outperformed the eta. 

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16 hours ago, jdm said:

Remind you gents that the topic at hand is not "any item or tool made in China", but watch tools specifically
 

 

Sure,   however the business and economic dynamics driving the current reality, and where it may be going transcends sectors.  As does the understanding the experience and knowledge of actually having manufactured in China brings.

 

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5 hours ago, measuretwice said:

Sure,   however the business and economic dynamics driving the current reality, and where it may be going transcends sectors.  As does the understanding the experience and knowledge of actually having manufactured in China brings

Correct, and for these topics we have an open section titled "Chat about anything" and "Chat about watches and the industry" for e.g. Chinese watches.

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Just remembered: I bought a Chinese Katsu Mini Pillar Drill recently and it’s incredibly good. Virtually no play, and a very clever design using a sewing machine motor. 

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2 hours ago, rodabod said:

Just remembered: I bought a Chinese Katsu Mini Pillar Drill recently and it’s incredibly good. Virtually no play, and a very clever design using a sewing machine motor. 

Link? I'm interested in getting one too.

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6 hours ago, jdm said:

Link? I'm interested in getting one too.

https://www.aimtools.co.uk/products/20-4

Available from other places under different brand names. Cost me £49 I think. 

It was accurate enough to core out an M3 screw with a 2mm bit in order to create a self-centring drill for M3 threaded holes. 

CF6EE049-3B90-4FD0-AF67-2400A27F8CD6.jpeg

Edited by rodabod

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I actually like vintage quality tools as they seem to be better built. I did buy Chinese tools in the beginning, such as a crystal press. However once I got a G-S Press, big difference. It really depends of the OEM of the tool, regardless of the Nationality.

Sent from my GT-N5110 using Tapatalk

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I cut my teeth as an engineer in the aerospace industry and whilst I do not want to discuss the product I’ll just say it was cutting edge technology. I was trained, (and trained others) to design and produce my own job specific tools as they were not available off the shelf. With this in mind, a tool is judged as being appropriate for the job by whether or not it’s fit for purpose, not by the manufacturers badge or it’s origin.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I too am an Engineer in the aerospace industry:)

Sent from my GT-N5110 using Tapatalk

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On 12/03/2018 at 7:28 PM, jdm said:

Correct, and for these topics we have an open section titled "Chat about anything" and "Chat about watches and the industry" for e.g. Chinese watches.

Is there a chat section entitled "Freedom of Speech In the Western World" and one about "Why I fought For my Country's Ideals"?  Meant light heartedly JDM, but we are only "chatting".

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https://www.aimtools.co.uk/products/20-4
Available from other places under different brand names. Cost me £49 I think. 
It was accurate enough to core out an M3 screw with a 2mm bit in order to create a self-centring drill for M3 threaded holes. 
CF6EE049-3B90-4FD0-AF67-2400A27F8CD6.thumb.jpeg.98a6eaed9c881d4ebdc8cf20acb36958.jpeg
Wow! Many thanks I thought I was going to have to spend hundreds to get one but this is extremely affordable!

Sent from my Z956 using Tapatalk

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5 hours ago, Deggsie said:

Is there a chat section entitled "Freedom of Speech In the Western World" and one about "Why I fought For my Country's Ideals"?  Meant light heartedly JDM, but we are only "chatting".

Please, I'm just inviting you guys to discuss everything you want at your heart content in the correct section.

Once again, the idea is to keep topics factual, useful and compact.

I don't think that is asking too much?!? 

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3 hours ago, Haris07 said:

I'm looking for a decent watch crystal press. I do have a cheap  blue press and it's starting to break. Please advise. 

 

BR,

Haris

As the poster said this. I expect it is a cheap import. When it comes to horological tools the trade is flooded with foreign imports of inferior quality.

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