Beginner: Messed up hair spring

[p2n]

Watch #2. Ingersol. Started as a non-runner. ebay £5.50

I stripped it down without breaking anything and had a good look. The problem was the jewel on the balance staff - one of them had broken and there were only crumbs left.

Since the watch was in bits I decided to clean it and soaked it in some isopropyl alcohol (lacking anything better at this stage). After a day or two I thought I'd better reassemble it while I wait for the boc of 1000 assorted jewels to arrive.

All was going will then a fumble and the balance spring is a little out of true. I've seen the video on how to straighten one so want to give it a go. The problem how do I detach the hairspring from the case? It seems to be pinned - do I just pull the pin out?

 

[Chopin]

You didn't show us the other side of the movement but I think this one might be friction fit and you just gently push it out. Some are held in place by a screw.

[dadistic]

It's held in place with a tapered pin. You'll need to remove the pin, I usually do it by pushing on the narrow end. Make note of how much spring is hanging out, you'll want to put it back in the same place when you're done. 

[p2n]

Ok - Wasn't sure and didn't want to force it.

I've still not quite got the dexterity for this yet (hence the original fumble and spring mangle).

Would it normally be a good idea to release the hairspring on this type of watch before removing the top plate?

[RyMoeller]

It looks like the stud is fiction fit to the top plate.  You may be able to press the stud out from the topside.

[p2n]

Thanks all - I've got a few things to try. I'll post the results.

[Deggsie]

Ok - Wasn't sure and didn't want to force it.
I've still not quite got the dexterity for this yet (hence the original fumble and spring mangle).
Would it normally be a good idea to release the hairspring on this type of watch before removing the top plate?

I can feel the pain. Hairsprings are my nemesis too. They do get easier, but you need to reserve 2 pairs of tweezers, especially narrow and sharp, and well set so that points have no day light between them when brought softly together. Now these are not to be used for the rough stuff. We are talking working with a 15x or 20x eye loop for 15 minutes at a time. It’s all about learning manipulation from now on. It’s akin to neuro-surgery. Work on ones which are in a very poor state. Chances are you are going to kill your first few patients like I did. Then when confident work on a hairspring which just needs just a little work and you can reap the rewards. I found it took a while to get confident.


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[p2n]

@Deggsie Thanks for the tips. Watch#1 (post somewhere about it) has a snapped hairspring so I plan to try that one first since it's starting beyond repair I can't make it any worse lol.

I do need some more tweezers - I have a cheap pair and a brass pair, both very fine but not the best ends. I need a better loupe as well, but one thing at a time

 

 

[p2n]

Tested releasing the pin on the hairspring on another mechanism first (An Emes that won't run as it's just very worn I think). We even managed to find the pin again on the floor after about half hour of searching :$

Was a little more controlled on the Ingersol and the pin came out without taking a detour under the table. It's so small - how I'll ever get it back in I've no idea!

I've removed the hairspring from the balance wheel. This is where I need more magnification and better tweezers. I can't quite see well enough to untangle it.

Also had a closer look as the missing balance staff jewel hole. Got a selection of 1000 jewels, need to work out how it's supposed to fit...

 

 

 

[Deggsie]

Tested releasing the pin on the hairspring on another mechanism first (An Emes that won't run as it's just very worn I think). We even managed to find the pin again on the floor after about half hour of searching :$
Was a little more controlled on the Ingersol and the pin came out without taking a detour under the table. It's so small - how I'll ever get it back in I've no idea!
I've removed the hairspring from the balance wheel. This is where I need more magnification and better tweezers. I can't quite see well enough to untangle it.
Also had a closer look as the missing balance staff jewel hole. Got a selection of 1000 jewels, need to work out how it's supposed to fit...
 
 
 

Oh wowzer. That’s a real cluster of heart ache. When like this, initially start outside working in towards the centre. When you can clearly see the coil formation then work from the centre outwards shaping up as you go. Tip: where the spring emanates from the brass collet, it has a sharp bend. This bend is a stress raiser in the material and rather unforgiving so don’t fiddle with it - it snaps easily. You probably have one chance to adjust this bend as it work hardens and then becomes very brittle. Make a wise call on whether or not you really need to adjust that bend otherwise leave it. Most of all take your time and enjoy! Ps tools don’t need to be expensive, I use cheap Indian brass tweezers and keep them needle sharp on a carburandum stone. As the stone begins to block up with brass the finish it produces is more desirable.


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[Deggsie]

Oh wowzer. That’s a real cluster of heart ache. When like this, initially start outside working in towards the centre. When you can clearly see the coil formation then work from the centre outwards shaping up as you go. Tip: where the spring emanates from the brass collet, it has a sharp bend. This bend is a stress raiser in the material and rather unforgiving so don’t fiddle with it - it snaps easily. You probably have one chance to adjust this bend as it work hardens and then becomes very brittle. Make a wise call on whether or not you really need to adjust that bend otherwise leave it. Most of all take your time and enjoy! Ps tools don’t need to be expensive, I use cheap Indian brass tweezers and keep them needle sharp on a carburandum stone. As the stone begins to block up with brass the finish it produces is more desirable.


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I did forget to add. Wash spring and tips of tools in naphthalene (zippo lighter fuel) and blot dry on watch paper. Any oil on the springs or tool tips makes manipulation more tricky


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[p2n]

@deggsie - Again, thanks for the tips! I'm hoping the spring isn't as bad as it looks since it was almost ok before I dropped it fumbled :$

Think I'm going to practice on the snapped on a bit first. Not quite worked out the technique to hold the collet and manipulate the spring.

[Deggsie]

@deggsie - Again, thanks for the tips! I'm hoping the spring isn't as bad as it looks since it was almost ok before I dropped it fumbled :$
Think I'm going to practice on the snapped on a bit first. Not quite worked out the technique to hold the collet and manipulate the spring.

No need to hold the collet. You should be looking to adjust the curvature of the spring progressively. This means holding the spring with one pair of tweezers just where the spring is acceptable. Then, with another pair of tweezers in your best hand, stroke the spring making the most minute adjustment. I cannot stress,there are no shortcuts and work for 15 mins at a time. Most of all enjoy success when you get it. There will be times you are disappointed- but as you know, to make a good omelette, you need to break eggs.


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[p2n]

Fingers crossed - will post the result.

[azkid]

Yikes. Good luck. I have a few mangled hairsprings myself (a couple due to me). I haven't tried to repair the worst of 'em but have managed mediocre success with a few of the minimally wonky ones so far. Hopefully this spring will come back to shape without too much grief!

[jdm]

On 3/9/2018 at 9:06 PM, p2n said:

All was going will then a fumble and the balance spring is a little out of true. I've seen the video on how to straighten one so want to give it a go.

Sorry to be blunt but I doubt very much that fixing that hairspring by manipulation is well out of the realm of possibilities for a beginner. But good luck anyway.

[p2n]

1 minute ago, jdm said:

Sorry to be blunt but I doubt very much that fixing that hairspring by manipulation is well out of the realm of possibilities for a beginner. But good luck anyway.

You may be right - but that's why I'm trying on a mechanism that cost £5 and not £500

If you never try the first one, you'll always be a beginner...

 

Got my tools all set up ready

 

[jdm]

Just now, p2n said:

If you never try the first one, you'll always be a beginner...

Of course. But the problem with (re)forming hairsprings and many other things in watchmaking is that the learning curve is long and steep. As motivated self learners we like to think that we ought to be better that next guy, but success is NOT guaranteed. How do I know?

 

 

[p2n]

I know what you're saying. It was no different when I sat down 25 years ago and lifted the lid of a Betamax VCR and tried to fix the mechanism (or the wretched Philips charly mech). As often the case, theory is easy, the real world is much harder. See how we go.

[Deggsie]

Of course. But the problem with (re)forming hairsprings and many other things in watchmaking is that the learning curve is long and steep. As motivated self learners we like to think that we ought to be better that next guy, but success is NOT guaranteed. How do I know?
 
 

Wow. That’s a small box. You’re doing well! [emoji6]


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[Deggsie]

You may be right - but that's why I'm trying on a mechanism that cost £5 and not £500 [emoji3]
If you never try the first one, you'll always be a beginner...
 
Got my tools all set up ready [emoji14]
 

Indian, or Chinese tools? ????


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[p2n]

On 11/03/2018 at 9:24 PM, Deggsie said:

Indian, or Chinese tools?
 

Chinese - the steel is a little softer and less likely to scratch

Had a go on the hair spring from watch 1 - it was totally mangled and snapped.

Should have taken more photos - but get engrossed and forget. It's also not the easiest thing to photo as the depth of field is very small so difficult to get it all in focus.

Generally pretty pleased. Lost the end part as was unable to open up the really tight loop. Could do with a few more to practice on really.

The spiral looks ok ( not perfect ) but the vertical isn't right. I have one pair of tweezers fine enough to grip at the mo - been using a sharpened toothpick to do the other half of the manipulation. Got a couple more pairs on order ( tweezers, not toothpicks )

 

Starting:

After manipulation, bit crinkly at the end.

Vertical not quite there yet...

[rappeleur]

Hmm. I am not a professional, but I have never seen a balance spring with that little rings/rounds... Can this run satisfactory and correct?

[p2n]

9 hours ago, rappeleur said:

Hmm. I am not a professional, but I have never seen a balance spring with that little rings/rounds... Can this run satisfactory and correct?

No, it's totally buggered. But it's marginally less buggered than when i started on it. I'm not risking trying this on the mechanism that has some chance of working again! Will practice on scrappers until I'm comfortable trying it on the other one.

[Deggsie]

On 09/03/2018 at 8:32 PM, dadistic said:

It's held in place with a tapered pin. You'll need to remove the pin, I usually do it by pushing on the narrow end. Make note of how much spring is hanging out, you'll want to put it back in the same place when you're done. 

This is a good point, but I always now reset using first principles (beat), i.e. roller on centre line between banking pins when the balance wheel is at rest..   This is for 2 main reasons.  Firstly, the watch may not have originally been set very well.  And secondly, after you have adjusted the hairspring geometry, it is very likely to have changed the beat anyway.   Just my personal view.  Regards

Deggsie