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17 minutes ago, LittleWatchShop said:

Mellon Institute.

I think realistically the easy way to tell is mine comes in a glass bottle and yours is in the plastic bottle it's obviously newer. The way that Elgin is shown the letter style I think is newer.

As far as the research Institute goes that would be both oils more than likely. Elgin outsourced a lot of the research to a variety of institutes. Even their head of research Dr Challacombe Was working for the armor research Institute doing an Elgin project and then went over to Elgin worked his way up to the head of research. So more than likely all the oil was researched somewhere else.

So you definitely need to use that oil see how it works out as the indication is it's definitely better than the Swiss. But don't tell anyone on the group I said that it would be a controversial thing to say and I get in trouble.

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Thomas Boswell is the guy you want to investigate around m56-a/m56-b and also the military watch oil that doesn't freeze, can't recall its name.

 

The blue plastic bottle is m56-b and was released later than the glass bottle.

 

 

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  • 5 weeks later...
On 2/16/2015 at 7:49 PM, JohnR725 said:

 

For your lubrication question you have a minor terminology problem that comes up quite a bit. Moebius Lubricants sometimes go by other names such as SYNT-A-LUBE which gets shortened to Moebius A Which is really 9010. Then as you're looking for S-6 I assume you're looking at a Seiko sheet and that's their general-purpose grease.

 

John

John, good info, thank you.  As well as "Synt-A-Lube" I have seen reference to Moebius Grease "Re-montoires" on a maintenance sheet for Seiko's 4006A movement (1960s-70s).  Unfortunately I have not been able to find any reference to "Re-montoires" on the internet and so not been able to translate this to a modern day grease product.  Is this likely to be the S-6?  If so, does this translate to Moebius 9501?  Thanks in advance.

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5 hours ago, Durbanator said:

John, good info, thank you.  As well as "Synt-A-Lube" I have seen reference to Moebius Grease "Re-montoires" on a maintenance sheet for Seiko's 4006A movement (1960s-70s).  Unfortunately I have not been able to find any reference to "Re-montoires" on the internet and so not been able to translate this to a modern day grease product.  Is this likely to be the S-6?  If so, does this translate to Moebius 9501?  Thanks in advance.

Remontoir is a french term for winding mechanism.

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21 minutes ago, Xilikon said:

winding mechanism

one of the problems with earlier tech sheets is the use the names of the products and not the numbers. Then the other thing when I was looking at the tech sheet for this watch it be better if you followed the lubrication requirements of the newest Seiko document you could find rather than the older documents. I think a lot of the lubricants are way too light for wherever the recommending them. But in regard to this question the 9501 should work fine.

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Regarding "Shelf life" I have been wondering what goes bad?  I have some lubricants that I know are old (I have posted a picture of them) but they seem to be quite normal in easily observable ways.  Feels like oil, smells like oil...

For natural oils, I would expect some smell effect or something...maybe a rancid smell.

Just wondering.

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15 minutes ago, LittleWatchShop said:

egarding "Shelf life"

in watch repair we have an interesting problem related to technical documentation? In other words you can have a service guide from 20 years ago telling you how to lubricate a watch yet today the same company for a similar watch may have entirely different recommendations. So you will have people embracing the technical guide and not paying attention to when that technical guide was generated or whether there have been updates changes etc. This of course leads to confusions over lubrication and recommendations.

For instance let's look at Omega a  lubrication guide from 2006 and another one from 2018 let's see if there's any differences?

In 2006 the shelf life in the bottle is 2 years and 2 weeks in your oil cups. All the lubricants are synthetic except the 8200 for mainsprings and 8212 for automatic mainsprings. Both of these 8000 series lubricants are considered natural oils or have natural oils in them.

then the 2018 document shelf life is now 6 years and you need to change your oils every week. There no longer using any 8000 series lubricants. also they have a recommendation for lubrication storage of 22°C room temperature dark dry location.

then I'm attaching a lubrication technical data chart which does have the shelf life. you'll notice that synthetic lubricants are all 6 years and natural is between 2 and 3 years. This is probably why Omega's using 6 years they are using the recommendation from here.

then there is the more interesting question how long is lubricate going to function in the watch?

Moebius-Technical-Data-Chart.pdf

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  • 4 months later...
On 5/13/2014 at 1:34 PM, newguy said:

I use and like Esslinger.com.  I'm out of Illinois.

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  • 4 weeks later...

There are different formulas being suggested here which is fine for us to test and tinker with but for a pro it’s just too risky. ETA have a lubricant specifically for reversing wheels “Lubeta V105” and it works but I see on a YouTube site a guy was using 90% petrol + 10% mobius 9010.
Again for me just too risky, also the amount of these liquids that are actually used compared to the amount of movements that can be serviced it is very reasonable.

Thats my opinion anyway😊😊

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3 minutes ago, clockboy said:

There are different formulas being suggested here which is fine for us to test and tinker with but for a pro it’s just too risky. ETA have a lubricant specifically for reversing wheels “Lubeta V105” and it works but I see on a YouTube site a guy was using 90% petrol + 10% mobius 9010.
Again for me just too risky, also the amount of these liquids that are actually used compared to the amount of movements that can be serviced it is very reasonable.

Thats my opinion anyway😊😊

I can appreciate the fact that in professional watchmaking its best to use the industry standard. Wouldn't want a client's expensive watch damaged because of experimentation.

I wouldnt want that for my own watches... Ill most likely end up buying some anyway. There is just something really fishy about that price though. Stearic crystals and ethanol dont add up to what they are asking for it. 

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24 minutes ago, clockboy said:

using 90% petrol + 10% mobius 9010

Conveniently my mind is drawing a blank but that is partially based on reality? Somewhere I've seen but I can't remember where there's a specification of using a solvent and 9010 and I'm pretty sure it is a eta document it might be a Omega document which is basically the same thing. That was most definitely not petrol was something else. I was basically because some of these substances with volatile chemicals can't be shipped. Or if they are shipped it's very very expensive

I suspect that I knew were was? Something I keep attaching and nobody apparently bothers to read all of it how sad?

PDF page 19 talks about lubrication of the reversers. PDF page 20 explains how to mix your own I suppose you could use petrol except does it have additives? I think of a better use a different solvent I know in this country they like the mix alcohol in dollars plus additives. So by no means is it clean solvent.

19 minutes ago, OTH said:

Strange that they had rust issues. Perhaps due to contamination?

Think about a solvent that is in the category of Freon almost. In other words it evaporates really fast and it gets cold. If you're in anywhere in the country where there's humidity. In other words take a glass of water put some ice cubes in it and set it on the table in front to you is it covered with moisture then you'd be screwed. So this is why when I was at a lecture with a talked about it there was a real elaborate procedure of dipping it in immediately blowing it with a hairdryer and putting it on a dryer to make sure is really really dry. Supposedly the new stuff isn't that volatile and doesn't evaporate that fast it's not an issue. But it's definitely been a concern amongst people.

Omega 8645_WI_40_rules for lubrication cousinsuk.pdf

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5 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

Conveniently my mind is drawing a blank but that is partially based on reality? Somewhere I've seen but I can't remember where there's a specification of using a solvent and 9010 and I'm pretty sure it is a eta document it might be a Omega document which is basically the same thing. That was most definitely not petrol was something else. I was basically because some of these substances with volatile chemicals can't be shipped. Or if they are shipped it's very very expensive

I suspect that I knew were was? Something I keep attaching and nobody apparently bothers to read all of it how sad?

PDF page 19 talks about lubrication of the reversers. PDF page 20 explains how to mix your own I suppose you could use petrol except does it have additives? I think of a better use a different solvent I know in this country they like the mix alcohol in dollars plus additives. So by no means is it clean solvent.

Think about a solvent that is in the category of Freon almost. In other words it evaporates really fast and it gets cold. If you're in anywhere in the country where there's humidity. In other words take a glass of water put some ice cubes in it and set it on the table in front to you is it covered with moisture then you'd be screwed. So this is why when I was at a lecture with a talked about it there was a real elaborate procedure of dipping it in immediately blowing it with a hairdryer and putting it on a dryer to make sure is really really dry. Supposedly the new stuff isn't that volatile and doesn't evaporate that fast it's not an issue. But it's definitely been a concern amongst people.

Omega 8645_WI_40_rules for lubrication cousinsuk.pdf 1.28 MB · 2 downloads

Petrol would not be a great replacement for benzene. Paint thinner (xylene, or toluene) is a good offset. But I'm new to this and coming from a lab, all these cleaners would used in a fume hood with full respirator. Please be careful with these things and keep all jars of solvent cleaners outside and tightly sealed or in a room with great ventilation. These things are cancerous.

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  • 1 month later...

Hey, thanks for this. I've read through it twice now, because part of my interest is in jump hour watches. I only have one BFG 866 jump hour, but i have two BFG 582 jump hour, and two UMF 24-34 which as you know is a similar design. 

I have a question about lubrication. 

Ironically, my BFG 866 jump hour is the 21J variation. But most of these are 1 or 0 jewel movements. I have maybe half a dozen 866 3-hand movements. 

It seems like the pivot-to-bearing area is larger in these than in jeweled movements, because the bearing is thicker, so perhaps slightly more oil is called for? 

And i have to wonder if the same viscosity is warranted as with jeweled pivot movements in the same size. Specifically i wonder if something heavier than 9010 might be better? 

My BFG 582 movements seemed to have been liberally lubricated with a mixture of 3-in-1 and Mel-Fry which had polymerized into a stiff goop which appears to have been why they stopped working. The bearings don't look ovaled-out like the ones on my UMF 24 movements. Short-lived lubricants for the win? 

Also the pallet pins. I have read somewhere that they should be lubricated. What might be the better lube for that? 

For what it's worth, I have Moebius 8000, 9010, D-5, 9415, and 8302 that are brand new. I also have Nye Fulcrum Oil, Nye PML Stem Grease, and Novostar R, B, and M that are about 10 years old. And 747 Silicone fwiw. 

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Hi, I'm trying to get an old Waltham automatic running.  It has a UTC233 movement (Seiko 6601b) in it and I can't find any information on whether the rotor ball bearings should be greased or oiled.  Page 13 of the BTI document just states "lubricate the ratchet drive wheel, the reversing wheel and the oscillating weight axle and bearing (jewel or ball" but doesn't specify which type....oil or grease.

Thanks,

George

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1 hour ago, PostwarO27 said:

ball bearings should be greased or oiled

It would seem like it's a really heavy component with a lot of possibly heavy friction so grease seems like what should be using but it's definitely not. It has to be able to rotate with zero interference which is what grease would do it needs a very light lubricant.

If you look at the link below you go to almost the bottom of the listing to find something called Lubeta. That we get the classic problem of lubrication by they have two versions 105 and 106 what's the difference? So one of the documents I look that says 105 is for the reverser wheels and 106 is for the ball bearing assemblies.

But if you download the document at the second link section 12 lubrication of ball bearings they are recommending 9010. So whatever you used to lubricate the ball bearings it has to really super thin and light otherwise you rotor won't rotate at all

Then another place you can look at is Seiko just find an  newer document like the one I'm attaching. Slightly annoying are using older terminology but basically it's 9010. Before we embraced numbers only a lot of the lubricants would have names. Like for instance 9010 is known as Synt-A-Lube.

Then just because another PDF whereas you'll see there are lubricating with a very tiny quantity of 9010.

https://www.moebius-lubricants.ch/en/products/specialities

https://www.cousinsuk.com/document/search?SearchString=Working+40

 

Seiko 7S26B_36B.pdf ETA CT_2824-2_FDE_481688_24.pdf

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The balls need to 'roll' in the bearing so the oil doing the lubrication should be thick enough to produce a boundary layer between the ball and the groove. Too thick and it will cause the ball to 'skid' in the groove and break through the boundary layer and cause wear on the ball and/or groove.  Too thin and the ball will break through the boundary layer again causing wear.  Grease is merely a 'carrier soap' plus oil and it is the oil that does the actual lubrication. Too thick an oil can also produce viscous drag as the ball tries to plough its way through the oil layer.

For such very small items and very fine tolerances, the thinnest acceptable oil should be used and not a grease as it would be too thick.  Watch oils like M9010 will also have some anti-wear additives that come into effect when the boundary layer is temporarily breached. Only a small amount of oil is needed as any excess will be squeezed out and will spread elsewhere (even worse for a grease). 

I am sure the movement makers have looked seriously at this and i would follow their recommendations if possible, but, at least find the viscosity of the oil they advise and use the same viscosity for a different oil brand if you have don't have the recommended oil.

Edited by canthus
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  • 3 weeks later...

Another question - what do you all prefer to lubricate pushers with? 

In situations where it's clear how to remove or disassemble pushers, perhaps the best idea is the same sort of silicone lube one would use for the gaskets on the crown - KT-22 silicone grease or similar? 

I've been messing with some old digital and quartz watches of mine recently and some of the pushers certainly seem to have been press-fit into the case, and I don't have the tool to remove or install those. And of course, once removed, they may not have been manufactured to be broken down further in the first place. 

And to be honest, it started with a watch that has oversize buttons for the pushers that has always had really crappy, sticky action. 

So after ultrasonic cleaning and a 99% IPA rinse to help dry things out, of course the pushers were just as stiff and sticky as ever. 

So i put a drop of 50cst silicone oil on the inside end of each pusher, held it vertically, and worked the pusher until the oil had been drawn into the works and the action on them was finally, at long last, easy and smooth. Then i mopped up the excess with a bit of paper towel and then some rodico. 

But that might have been a little on the thin side? 

It occurred to me that silicone oil is readily available in just about any viscosity range you could possibly desire. Remote control model builders use it for differential gears and hobby stores of that ilk stock it anywhere from a couple hundred cst to the mid-5-digits. I myself have 10,000cst silicone oil that i bought to 'upgrade' the action on a replacement hydraulic fan clutch for my truck (since the aftermarket part is known to be a little reluctant to engage).

10,000cst oil flows like honey. It can take several minutes for small air bubbles to rise to the top of the bottle and break. 

 

Edited by TimpanogosSlim
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Hi just joined this forum, watched lots of youtube tutorials of Mark repairing watches which I totally enjoy viewing, I was wondering if many guys here use the Mobius 8000 oil? If yes, could they give their opinion on it, I also use some of the Horology Society oils they recommend, which seem OK that I used in the past,,

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5 hours ago, Stewart said:

Mobius 8000 oil? If yes, could they give their opinion on it

A lot of people probably use it on the group because it's cheap people like cheap oils.

The link above sooner or later oh have answers to every question you could possibly have and then some. But even though I know it's in the link above is a link below we can look up your oil.

One of the problems with your oil is its natural? Natural oils can sometimes have better lubrication properties but natural also means shorter shelf life. So if you download the spec sheet shall see the lubrication properties are excellent. It's a rather thin oil I suspected have a likelihood of spreading. Then it has a really short shelf life of two years?

At one time they didn't put expiring dates and you could buy a bottle of what looks like new oil and have no idea when it was made. So now they put dates on them so you know how old your  your bottle is.

The problem with a shelflife is what exactly does it mean? So the  popular 9010 an equivalent light oil doesn't quite have is nice lubrication properties is 8000 but it has a shelflife of six years. So basically I guess the interpretation is you could have it on yourself although technically it's post be in a cool dark place for six years service a watch and expect the watch to go out for how many years before coming back. Where your 8000 oil looks Meyer way earlier than the synthetic.

6 hours ago, Stewart said:

Horology Society

I wonder how many horological societies exist in the world  maybe you can narrow down where this one is located?

 

https://www.moebius-lubricants.ch/en

 

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