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Stems / Crowns in pocket watch cases


Piff

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Hello. I’m fresh to the forum and am looking for information regarding stems on pocket watches. My wife has a family heirloom pocket watch (Waltham 1908 in Illinois case) that is missing the stem/crown. I’m confused as to whether the stem/crown is part of the movement itself, or part of the case. I’ve seen a couple of pocket watch cases for sale that have a short (square) stem with them. I’ve also seen some without a stem. So, I guess my question is, are all pocket watch stems some sort of two-piece affair? Is the crown/stem always supposed to stay (captured) within the case?

I'm wondering if our crown was yanked out at some point.

 

Regards.

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Might need a picture to verify, but usually the stem and crown in American pocket watches are part of the case, not the movement. That being said, there are SOME called positive stems, the movement having a stem protrude from the side, most being square, and the female or negative part of the stem is attached to the crown and resides in the case tube. More than likely the case is simply missing the crown and stem, as they could be pulled out too far if the sleeve inside the case tube was sprung or damaged.

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That looks like a Spartan case, the stem in them is very short, it's probably just been pulled out and lost. A decent 16s case isn't very expensive if it's an heirloom and you want to get it going again. Finding a stem for that case by itself could be more difficult, as they only fit those cases. 

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Indeed it is a Spartan case. Thank you. You’ve been a wealth of information for me so far.

I’ve had the back off before, but without having any idea until today what to do next, I had left it at that. So, do all 16s cases have a stem in the case that can be inserted into any 16s movement? Or regardless if it's long-necked stem or short-necked? Is it that standardized?

Additionally, do the dial-side glass screw on/off like the backing plates? A number of cases I’ve seen for sale don’t look to have crystals with them. I was wondering just how much I can disassemble the existing case and reuse pieces. Is around $30-50 the going rate for a case? I've seen prices kind of all over.

Thanks and regards.

IMG_2269_sized.jpg

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On that case yes the front dial unscrews just like the back.  Usually any 16s AMERICAN watch will fit in any 16s American case, as the size itself is standard, and usually the stem will work, although sometimes you have to adjust the sleeve inside the stem tube (need a sleeve wrench for this) to get the set/wind functions to work smoothly. You can find 16s cases on ebay all the time, and sometimes you can buy a whole non-functioning watch in a decent case cheaper than you can buy a case by itself.

There are 2 case screws that you remove (you see them protruding past the edge of the movement holding it into the case), just remove those, unscrew the front bezel, and the movement comes out of the front. Be careful when handling the movement and especially the hands as they are very delicate. The movement installs in the reverse order, but if your putting it in a new case, pull the stem out until it clicks, then once the movement is in fully push the stem back in. Sometimes the stem extends too far pushed in to allow the movement to angle up/down into the case. Replace the screws snug but not over tight and you're done.

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For a good, non-engraved base metal (like yours) Spartan or Defiance case I would expect to pay around the 30-35 mark, the condition will almost always define the price. Having a good crystal is also something to consider before buying, as finding one and replacing it is a job unto itself. For some reason the Spartan cases are hard to fit crystals, they're almost always a custom fit, especially mineral glass, acrylic is more forgiving but not as durable.

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Well, it looks like my wife's watch has at least one more issue that I am now aware of. I opened the case back up and examined it more closely today, and it looks like it probably has a broken balance shaft. The balance wheel would tilt this way and that as I moved the case. It’s clearly not being held in place by the pivot points. I might wait on purchasing a replacement case until I gain a better understanding of what I might be getting myself into.

It looks like the first thing I need is a more appropriate screwdriver set. I have a nice little multi-tip screwdriver, but the blade profiles are just a little too wide for the slots if I want to match the blade diameter to the screw.

I was hoping that I would be able to make the watch run before committing any real money for a bunch of specialist tools, but who am I kidding; there are no free puppies. Time to research what members think is a reasonable minimalist tool kit.

Regards.

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Replacing the staff isn't what I would call a beginner's task. If you luck out and it's a friction fit staff, as a lot of Waltham 16 sizes were, you still need a staking kit ($$) and special stakes for those staffs ($$$). Screwdriver kits, beginner's anyway, can be had pretty cheap, just don't expect them to last. It might be worthwhile to have a watch repair person at least look at it and give you an estimate, I would charge around $50 to restaff a watch, plus parts. The positive side is there were TONS of Walthams (and Elgins) made, so parts are pretty plentiful, you might actually be able to find a donor movement with a good balance and just do a swap, but that would still take a lot of care and steady hands.

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As simple as replacing the staff looks right now there are still some other issues. A decent micrometer or some sort of decent measuring device is needed. One problem that comes up one part number with variations. Most usual variation is pivot size and they could be other dimensional differences depending upon the company etc. So it's important to get the right replacement staff not just assume it's going to fit. Then hopefully if somebody replace the staff before you they took the same care so the replacement staff will fit. Then modern replacement staffs versus the originals many times there made over size so they can be reduced to fit.

Then depending upon what broke the balance staff the hole Jewels may be cracked or broken.

Then to understand the problem of variation to the same part number image is attached. Then despite all of variations usually the replacement staff's available today are the most common ones you probably won't run into all the variations but it's important to be aware that there are variations.

wal-staff.JPG

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At the very least the pivot would have to be measured yes, as well as the condition of the jewels. As I said, not a beginner's task to say the least. The good thing is, Waltham 4861 staffs are plentiful, in various pivot sizes, in fact I have 3 or 4 in my drawer at home, so finding the staff would be relatively easy, replacing it, not so much (along with the other possible issues described).

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I watched a YouTuber do a re-staff on a balance wheel, and the process doesn’t seem that scary (I can follow directions easily enough); however, I’m obviously not going to do something like that at my skill level (Lvl 0), and I’m not in a hurry to invest in the specialist tools before finding out if I like watch cleaning/repair enough to get deep into it.  (Thank you JohnR725 for that additional information on balance staff replacement. It’s appreciated.)

As for having a professional look at the watch, I’ll probably check into that, but I wonder whether this particular watch is worth the cost.  I know I called it an heirloom in my first post but considering that I now know it has two issues, with the very real possibility of additional unknown ones, I would imagine replacement parts plus the services of a reputable watch repair would command more than the sentimental value. This watch is an heirloom, not an Heirloom.

That being said, I came to this community because I’m interested in tinkering with small objects. Ideally, I would like to start my experience off by stripping a couple of watches down (both pocket and wrist) and put them back together, because it looks fun. It looks like getting to a point of stripping and cleaning a watch isn’t necessarily beyond a beginner’s monetary means. And swapping parts versus fixing them looks like a possibility.

As for serial numbers, (khunter’s last image) I’ve been to the pocket watch database website for identifying my watch and was wondering whether the serial numbers on these watches sequential production numbers, but that would have been a heck of a lot of watches. Can these Waltham (or any other makers) serial numbers be decoded by average people?

Regards.

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How about a slight variation in the discussion of a course of action? Find a similar watch to yours on eBay and practice with that one. You want to learn watch repair get a watch to learn on but not the family heirloom one if he gets broken so be it. If you want to practice doing staffing practice on that. No matter what you're going to have to find a practice watch to practice with any way might as well practice with something that you want to work on.

Then regarding the serial numbers they're not something that's decoded. Usually the very first watch the company made was number one but not necessarily. Sometimes they started a higher number. Usually they just did numeric sequence. The pocket watches are usually made in groups or batches so that's why you see that the serial numbers are this to this. Then if you have lots of batches made over lots of years For instance Illinois 12 size model three very common one made over a very sizable quantity of years. The parts book claims that all of the parts interchange the reality is they do not. The tooling will change from the beginning of the end the production even in a batch the size tolerances can change. I think about the only serial numbers that may be possible of the code or modern ones Seiko for instance you can's tell the country of manufacture and some other stuff but the pocket watches you just a number. Then the number awesome appears on all of the plates and it's even sometimes are usually scribed on the balance wheel because they don't really interchange.

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Sorry guys, I just reread my previous post and looking back at it, I might have made it sound like I was going to dive right into doing the hard stuff. Actually, I have started looking into ebay for alternatives to practice on. Sadly, it’s been 15+ years since I ebay’d anything, so I missed an opportunity when I didn’t remember that you’re supposed to confirm a bid before it becomes official. I was reading the pop-up window when time expired… haha… lesson learned.

Regards.

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In the case of the Illinois Watch Co, yes, their serial numbers started at 1 in 1872, and by the time they were bought out by the Hamilton Watch Co in 1927 they had produced about 4.8 million watches. More Illinois watches were sold and even produced under Hamilton, their total numbers reaching a little over 5.6 million. Elgin and Waltham were the most prolific producers, their numbers are in the 10's of millions, Elgin started also with the number 1 in 1867 and ended with over 53 million in 1956. Waltham started also at 1 in 1857, and ended in the 33 millions in 1948...There isn't a "code" for the numbers, but there are good databases online that give lots of information about them, the histories of the companies, and some pretty interesting stories too sometimes......

Edited by khunter
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As mentioned above staking set is required for replacing balance staffs. Then for the waltham watches friction staff's special punches are needed which probably none of us have but it be really nice if you did. You have to be careful with friction fit staffs not to accidentally knock the hub out. Usually but not always the watch company will give you a clue that it is a friction staff as the hub will be blue in color. But that's not always 100% correct. Sometimes you need the staff to look at to see how the balance comes apart.

waltham - staff - tools.JPG

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