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1 of only 100 made 12s 23j Illinois opinions


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I just received what I believe is a rare gem from ebay. It's a 12s, 23j Illinois model 3 grade 416, adjusted to 6 positions, made in 1917. All 3 sources I have all confirm that it is indeed 1 of only 100 ever produced. It's my opinion that the dial and case are also original, or at the very least period correct. The watch is complete, except one missing train jewel in the bridge on the 4th wheel, the setting is there but the jewel is missing. The one problem, and this is my question: The balance wheel is not the right one, it's a single roller instead of double, flat hairspring instead of breguet, and it's solid instead of split. Illinois and others actually scribed the movement serial numbers on the underneath side of the balance arm, so it's pretty easy to tell when a major part like that is replaced. If/when I replace it with a proper grade balance and spring, what effect do you think it will have on the overall value? This watch HAS to run (point of pride), and I know a running watch is more valuable than not, but I'd like other opinions. I have cleaned the movement so it's disassembled right now but I'll post pictures later today. The plates are badly stained from someone spraying some kind of oil all over the movement (it literally dripped out), I may have to re-plate the entire thing to bring it back to the original look, but that's another "what if".....

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Any part in anything that is replaced will affect value. Parts that are, must be correct in every way right down to the tiniest detail. If youR watch is rear and valuable you should take it to an expert and seek advice before you work on it. That is what I recommend  if you live in the UK.

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I found some background history for this movement the link below.

If you look at the discussion groups of the ultra-purist on anything watch related anything you do to this watch will be totally wrong. But if it's your own personal watch you can do whatever you feel like. If you should ever sell it you should always disclose what has happened to it as opposed to selling in his mint and it's not  The real challenge on the something like this will be getting the right parts.

http://illinoiswatchguide.com/grade416.html

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Yes I've already read this, plus the information from Erhardts Illinois watch guide. Of course any and all changes would be documented and disclosed if I ever decided to part with it. Unfortunately tracking down the ORIGINAL balance wheel would be virtually impossible, as the original owner or subsequent owners are unknown. 

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Finding the balance really wont be that hard, as it is basically a suped up grade 3 model 410, of which many were produced. Finding one with gold balance screws (which for Illinois was a grade 1, highest) will be a little more difficult without having to gut a 12s A. Lincoln movement.

Illinois parts were graded 1 to 3, highest to lowest, while their movement grades, such as 416 in this case, simply denoted a sub-model within a major model, as in model 3 in this case. Anyway the part search is on, I'll try to post pictures of the progress. 

Edited by khunter
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Here's a photo after I replaced the missing 4th wheel upper jewel (in a proper gold setting), upper and lower balance hole jewels, and upper escape wheel hole jewel. The balance is a proper grade 1 with gold balance screws, new staff, trued and poised. Waiting on a new alloy mainspring and it should be ready for final assembly. 

2018-03-04 09.04.03.jpg

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Looking at your pictures the watch cleaned up really nicely.

Then what's really puzzling is with the watch cleaned up it looks like a 12 size Illinois? I've seen quite a few 12 size Illinois and other than 23  jewels There's nothing that stands out this watch unique. There is no special name is no fancy multi colored plates or even gold screws it looks like a regular 12 size watch so why did they only make 100 of them?

 

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It is a 12s, model 416, which is just a fancier model 410. It does have gold raised jewel settings, ruby jewels and the solid gold balance screws. The lettering is also red instead of black or gold. Erhardt also posed the same "why did they make it?" question but no one really knows, but I'm glad they did and that I have one lol.

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Its 23 jewels, 2 in the barrel, 21 in the rest of the train. I'm not sure why it was marked separately (the pillar plate is marked jeweled barrel, the bridge is marked 21 jewels). Another oddity I suppose. Illinois fashioned a few of its 12s movements after their larger 16s cousins. This movement also has the recessed area under the balance wheel as did the Bunns and Sangamos, the 12s A. Lincon and 16s are also similar in design. Illinois was also the only company to produce the same named grade, the Abe Lincoln, in 3 sizes, 12, 16, and 18.....

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27 minutes ago, khunter said:

Its 23 jewels, 2 in the barrel, 21 in the rest of the train. I'm not sure why it was marked separately (the pillar plate is marked jeweled barrel, the bridge is marked 21 jewels). Another oddity I suppose. Illinois fashioned a few of its 12s movements after their larger 16s cousins. This movement also has the recessed area under the balance wheel as did the Bunns and Sangamos, the 12s A. Lincon and 16s are also similar in design. Illinois was also the only company to produce the same named grade, the Abe Lincoln, in 3 sizes, 12, 16, and 18.....

I sort of expected to see a jeweled motor-barrel on a 23J Illinois, like the Bunn Special 16s. I did, however, look in Ehrhardt & Meggers' gold book on American pocket watches, as well as Ehrhardt's Illinois ID and Price Guide, and it looks like the grade 416 has a jeweled barrel, but not a motor-barrel? Interesting watch. Enjoy.

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20 minutes ago, MrRoundel said:

I sort of expected to see a jeweled motor-barrel on a 23J Illinois, like the Bunn Special 16s. I did, however, look in Ehrhardt & Meggers' gold book on American pocket watches, as well as Ehrhardt's Illinois ID and Price Guide, and it looks like the grade 416 has a jeweled barrel, but not a motor-barrel? Interesting watch. Enjoy.

That's correct. They also made a couple 12s movements with a motor barrel as well, this almost looks like a stop gap between going barrels and the later motor barrel.

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So I couldn't wait, it's fully assembled and running like a charm, I'll install the alloy spring when it gets here. I polished all the screw heads with my new jig (pictures in the tool section), all but the crown and ratchet wheel screws but they have to come back off anyway later this week. There's also still a bit too much end shake in the balance but I'm not surprised with having to replace both jewels, the top jewel shoulder needs thinned down a hair, or a couple hundredths of a millimeter lol.

2018-03-04 21.42.24.jpg

2018-03-04 21.42.56.jpg

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Well, the jewel problem is fixed, had to take about 2/100 off the shoulder thickness, running great in all positions now. The bad news is after talking to some knowledgeable people here it turns out that the escape bridge is apparently a replacement. I thought it was just lighting or viewing angle but the damaskeening pattern does not match. I also thought the partial serial under the bridge matched, right numbers but apparently the wrong order, so I guess I was just seeing what I wanted to see. The watch wasn't intended for sale anyway, and the balance wheel had to be replaced, so I guess it is what it is, mostly 1 of 100........:(

 

Edited by khunter
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So I just put it on the timegrapher and was pleasantly surprised, here's before and after demagnetization, fully assembled except for hands, the motion work is in place as is the dial.

Anyone who says these old pocket watches can't be accurate needs to rethink it. The amplitude is awesome, and I'm fine with 0.7ms beat error, not bad for eye-balling it.

If you see wavy traces like this run it through the demagnetizer, I noticed while assembling the rocking balance would impart motion into the escape wheel WITHOUT the pallet fork in place.

 

2018-03-06 09.22.47.jpg

2018-03-06 09.21.32.jpg

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Your amplitude is not right it's way too high, the lift angle is wrong. Typically the 12 size Illinois I've seen have all been 45°.

Then for timekeeping short-term it can be a phenomenal it can even be a phenomenal in multiple positions but over 24 hours how is the timekeeping?

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18 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

Your amplitude is not right it's way too high, the lift angle is wrong. Typically the 12 size Illinois I've seen have all been 45°.

Then for timekeeping short-term it can be a phenomenal it can even be a phenomenal in multiple positions but over 24 hours how is the timekeeping?

The watch ran on the bench for 2 days before checking, and visually the balance seems to be pretty close to what the timegrapher indicated, but that's just a seat of the pants assessment. Also the mainspring I had on hand is probably a bit strong at 0.18, I believe 0.17 is the correct strength for a high jewel 12s watch. I'll do some research on the lift angle and see what I can find out. How did you determine 45°? Seems a bit low....

The point here is that the watch wasn't even complete when I got it, having to replace 3 jewels, the balance wheel, and all the caked on oil from who knows how many years. So I think all in all it's a pretty good result.

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So I did some checking and not finding any information in my Illinois material or online I went old school. I let the power down and slowly wound it back up until I had an observable 180° swing on the balance, and sure enough 45° lift angle was pretty much spot on. The measured amplitude now is still a respectable 309°, and the daily rate is -0.6 sec/day....thanks for the info @JohnR725

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For everyone who likes of visual presentation of what's described above for finding the lift angle there's a link to a video below. Then the second link lift angles from modern watches unfortunately nothing for anything older. Which means you have to do the procedure in the video unless you have a really expensive timing machine the Swiss now make which will determine this automatically.

Then this is an interesting project limited quantity watch that somebody cannibalized probably clueless as to what they had. Restored back to running condition makes for a really interesting conversation piece.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Xgcck692js

https://www.witschi.com/assets/files/sheets/Scope Schlagzahlen def 2-3.pdf

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