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2 Questions regarding regulating


TKH

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Folks:

I'm looking to regulate my wife's new Bulova 98P170.

https://www.bulova.com/collections/womens-watches/products/98p170

I beleive it is using the Miyota 82S0 movement:

http://miyotamovement.com/pdf/spec_82S0.pdf

I've been monitoring the watch's rates with the WatchTracker app for a while now.  During active daily wear it is +30.2 spd. Over night Crown down it is +15.4 spd.  So over 4 days it is running +24.8.  I'm hoping to get it down near +10 spd---with slight regulation.

My trouble is, I'm not fully confident I can tell how this specific movement should be adjusted. See photo of the balance spring with the "+" and "-" indicators. To me it isn't perfectly clear how to slow it down. Sure, the retard indicator on the right would make me think I possibly to move the adjuster so the open gap (red circle I put in the pic) toward the "-". To do this, I assume I gently push against the adjuster on the right side (red arrow); however, it just isn't as clear as I would like.  Can someone please confirm?  I'm trying to tell if this would increase the balance spring lenght, but without better magnification, not sure. I am ordering a magnification eyepiece soon.

Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated.  Please understand I'm fully aware I need to exercise extreme caution; make only ever slight movements as well as use a timing machine to see the instant impact of my slight changes.

Edited Pic.JPG

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If you drew a line through the regulator arm as far as the +/- symbols then you can see that the indicators show the correct direction. Move it very, very slightly (in the range of say, 0.1mm). Do not slip and touch the hairspring.

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Thank you both Rodabod and Chopin.  Greatly appreciated.  Your explanations helped me see the logic in how it was designed--the labels that is.  Here's to hoping I can slow it ever so slightly.  .1mm will indeed take much care. 

Again, greatly appreciated.

TKH

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42 minutes ago, clockboy said:

Does your watch tracker app show beat error.

The app OP is using is just a tracker, it does not actually listen to the movement. In my opinion it's kind of a waste of time.

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19 minutes ago, jdm said:

The app OP is using is just a tracker, it does not actually listen to the movement. In my opinion it's kind of a waste of time.

I will be using a timegrapher. Probably the 1000.  It shows beat error.

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Folks:

Love the support this forum brings.  To my questions:

#1) Would you regulate this watch?  I have a Seiko SARB35 that uses movement 6R15C.  Out of the box it was consistently running +3spd for 2 weeks. It is now settling down to -6.3spd. Over night, dial down, I can get it to only -1.5spd but when worn it jumps to -10 to -15 spd.  Should I bother trying to regulate it?  In other words, when is it just not worth it trying to hunt for precision?  Ideal would be over night I can gain +3 or +5 and worn lose -3 to -5.  Again, is it worth trying to dial that in any better?

#2) Related to #1 a bit, in regulating, what are the tricks of the trade to make an ever so slight adjustment to the regulator arm? I gave my first attempt at regulating my wife's Bulova watch today.  I don't have my timegrapher just yet, so I adjusted and then time watched over a day. Before regulation it was at +24spd, on average. I carefully moved the regulator in the retard direction (it was a bit stiff at first so it took a bit of pressure). Due to it being stiff, it slid a bit more than I wanted. Still, only moved very little but now the watch is -35. So I just learned how sensitive that is.  Again, to the question, how in the world can I only incrementally move it?  When I get my timegrapher, I will want to move it just so very little to watch the -35 move closer to -1 or 0.  I was trying to think of some way to incrementally apply pressure. One thought is a flat blade screwdriver flat on a surface and with a connector between its blade and the regulator arm, slowly twist the screwdriver to control motion and make the connector push slightly.  Like a camshaft...sounds easier than it may be.  Any good ideas out there?

All the best.....

TKH

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Until you get your timing machine, I would leave them alone. Some times with regulating it could be the movement, not oiled right, old oil even dirt. What you have are not chronographs.

When I had a movement with a regulator like this. What I found to sometimes do the trick was to with my tweezers was to touch the tail and rub the tail from tip, I found it a good way, and you think you are not moving the regulator but you are. It will not work if the regulator is stiff.  

mqUXdiNISKm3TifBKfSsyFA.jpg

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3 hours ago, oldhippy said:

Until you get your timing machine, I would leave them alone. Some times with regulating it could be the movement, not oiled right, old oil even dirt.

OP has a new Seiko watch, so no old oiling issues. But from experience, these can arrive to the owner in very variable conditions of accuracy and beating pattern. And they have the Etachron regulator for adjustment of positional error and hairspring clearance. For all these reasons a timegrapher is essential. Due to its accessibility is quickly becoming a popular accessory among watch collectors.

All that being said, the best way to improve a watch that is accurate already like the OPs SARB, without even opening the watch, is to find the position at night that best compensate whatever error builds during the day.

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4 hours ago, TKH said:

#1) Would you regulate this watch?  I have a Seiko SARB35 that uses movement 6R15C.  Out of the box it was consistently running +3spd for 2 weeks. It is now settling down to -6.3spd. Over night, dial down, I can get it to only -1.5spd but when worn it jumps to -10 to -15 spd.  Should I bother trying to regulate it?  In other words, when is it just not worth it trying to hunt for precision?  Ideal would be over night I can gain +3 or +5 and worn lose -3 to -5.  Again, is it worth trying to dial that in any better?

I've attached a small section out of the 6R15C technical guide related to timekeeping. So it looks like your watch is within the specifications set by Seiko. In a static position you should Be able to get down to less than 10 seconds. But soon as it goes on the wrist Seiko indicates the timing is a be much greater variation exactly what you're seeing.

So there's more to precision timekeeping than just moving the regulator and a watch like this trying to get it to keep chronometer time is going to be a total waste of time. But once you get your timegrapher /timing machine you can try to regulate it closer to zero but just except you never going to get super perfect.

6r15c-regulation.JPG

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4 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

I've attached a small section out of the 6R15C technical guide related to timekeeping. So it looks like your watch is within the specifications set by Seiko. In a static position you should Be able to get down to less than 10 seconds. But soon as it goes on the wrist Seiko indicates the timing is a be much greater variation exactly what you're seeing.

So there's more to precision timekeeping than just moving the regulator and a watch like this trying to get it to keep chronometer time is going to be a total waste of time. But once you get your timegrapher /timing machine you can try to regulate it closer to zero but just except you never going to get super perfect.

6r15c-regulation.JPG

Thank you, John R725. Appreciate the quick technical spec. I was going to need to look up the lift angle, so you saved me a search.  I fully accept that I'm not going to get chronometer accuracy out of my $350 watch. If I desire that or better, I should start saving for a Seiko spring drive--but that's another debate.  

Seeing as though I'm within designed tolerance, I can live with it. -6.5spd.  That really isn't all that bad.  I must say if I was able to accurately make an incredibly slight adjustment and the regulate on the advance side by the slightest amount, I would. What I fear, and is likely the case, is if I tried the smallest adjustment that I'm at greater risk of making my Seiko +20 or +30 and never able to get it back to single digits.  Until I discover or invent a way to add only the slightest bit of change,, I think I'll not touch it.  One thing I am considering is what Oldhippy suggested.  A slight rub on the adjusting arm instead of push it.  Hummmmmm

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56 minutes ago, TKH said:

What I fear, and is likely the case, is if I tried the smallest adjustment that I'm at greater risk of making my Seiko +20 or +30 and never able to get it back to single digits. 

Regulating a Seiko for 10 - 15 seconds is not very difficult, one can kind of see and feel the arm moving a tiny bit. But as mentioned, 5 secs adjustments are another matter, there are various methods. For sure it's not like pushing.

In the end it's about how it behaves on the wrist. Most people doesn't tolerate slow watches at all, and I understand that. But as mentioned before the solution could be in how the watch is left at night. These Seiko in most cases run bit faster when horizontal, but there could be 10 secs between dial up and dial down, even on a brand new watch.

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@JDM:  I suppose the beauty is I can take all of the guesswork out of this, regarding position speeds, when my timegrapher arrives. Currently I'm using an app to time check dial up or down through the night.  I admit it is far from accurate. Getting the timing of "Set" when the second had sweeps past a set time is laughable.  I assume with a timegrapher I can, after letting it settle a min or so, test each position to find the least loss (in my case) and use that at night.  My current bet is dial down as that is currently giving me, with my app as the yard stick, -.01spd to -.03 spd.  Like I said previously, I would love to get it to where dial down or up gave me +5, etc, so I could compensate for the fact that active wearing causing --10 to -15 spd.  As you can probably guess, I will eventually itch too much and want to move the regulator in the direction of the advanced position--ever so slightly......

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I also come very often to this problem concerning watches with a regulator arm. I built this little tool. The tool head grips over the regulator arm while the watch is on the timegrapher and due to the tools long lever arm (which is about 4 inches) I can manipulate the regulator position very precise. Here are some pics of my work on a watch which ran constantly +4 seconds per day and I could slow it down to +1 second. 

31625242yt.jpg

 

31625244sq.jpg

 

31625245mh.jpg

 

31625246ag.jpg

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2 hours ago, Delgetti said:

I also come very often to this problem concerning watches with a regulator arm. I built this little tool. The tool head grips over the regulator arm while the watch is on the timegrapher and due to the tools long lever arm (which is about 4 inches) I can manipulate the regulator position very precise. Here are some pics of my work on a watch which ran constantly +4 seconds per day and I could slow it down to +1 second. 

Brilliant, Delgetti.  Use leverage to refine movement.  Similar to how the medical device "The da vinci" works for Physicans doing delicate surgery in, around and on nerves.  A doctors movement of 10 inches by his arm translates to 10 mm of the device.   I love it! Now to figure out how to do so myself.  If I only knew the size of the regulator arm I could try building something similar.  Thanks for sharing.

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42 minutes ago, TKH said:

Brilliant, Delgetti.  Use leverage to refine movement.  Similar to how the medical device "The da vinci" works for Physicans doing delicate surgery in, around and on nerves.  A doctors movement of 10 inches by his arm translates to 10 mm of the device.   I love it! Now to figure out how to do so myself.  If I only knew the size of the regulator arm I could try building something similar.  Thanks for sharing.

Certainly surgeoons go through training to learn how to use their hands before using instruments. But from what I gather you have never did any task on any watch before ?!?

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On 24/01/2018 at 12:49 AM, TKH said:

Folks:

I'm looking to regulate my wife's new Bulova 98P170.

https://www.bulova.com/collections/womens-watches/products/98p170

I beleive it is using the Miyota 82S0 movement:

http://miyotamovement.com/pdf/spec_82S0.pdf

I've been monitoring the watch's rates with the WatchTracker app for a while now.  During active daily wear it is +30.2 spd. Over night Crown down it is +15.4 spd.  So over 4 days it is running +24.8.  I'm hoping to get it down near +10 spd---with slight regulation.

My trouble is, I'm not fully confident I can tell how this specific movement should be adjusted. See photo of the balance spring with the "+" and "-" indicators. To me it isn't perfectly clear how to slow it down. Sure, the retard indicator on the right would make me think I possibly to move the adjuster so the open gap (red circle I put in the pic) toward the "-". To do this, I assume I gently push against the adjuster on the right side (red arrow); however, it just isn't as clear as I would like.  Can someone please confirm?  I'm trying to tell if this would increase the balance spring lenght, but without better magnification, not sure. I am ordering a magnification eyepiece soon.

Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated.  Please understand I'm fully aware I need to exercise extreme caution; make only ever slight movements as well as use a timing machine to see the instant impact of my slight changes.

Edited Pic.JPG

Have you demagnetised the movement  ?

You should alway demagnetise a watch before trying to regulate it, quite often after demagnetising the rate will be better anyway without even having to touch the regulator. 

Not sure what app/device you are using to measure time keeping, but my opinion and thoughts would be, by putting any mechanical watch that close to a phone or electric devise there would be a good chance it's now magnetised. I have never used or wouldn't use these apps for this reason alone, but I suppose everyone has there own ways and means of doing things.

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21 minutes ago, Tiktok said:

Have you demagnetised the movement  ?

You should alway demagnetise a watch before trying to regulate it, quite often after demagnetising the rate will be better anyway without even having to touch the regulator. 

Not sure what app/device you are using to measure time keeping, but my opinion and thoughts would be, by putting any mechanical watch that close to a phone or electric devise there would be a good chance it's now magnetised. I have never used or wouldn't use these apps for this reason alone, but I suppose everyone has there own ways and means of doing things.

Tiktok:

I haven't demagnetized it.  I found an iPad app (I know this sounds lame, but I tested it) that tests for magnetism.  I downloaded it and tested it with a magnet and, much to my surprise, it worked. I was a BIG skeptic before I tested it.  Apparently the iPad has a chip that detects magnetism.  To prove it was working, I took a kitchen magnet (strong) and held it high above the iPad.  When running the dection app it picked up the magnet almost 10 inches from the iPad. I was shocked. I tried to move to within a few inches and it basically got an "error" for too strong of a magnet.  So to me, this worked very well. 

I then used this same app with the watch and got "0" magnetism detected.  All that said, you are correct, Tiktok, the lease expensive and invasive idea is to demagnetize it. Since such devices only run $10.00, I should have done that first. 

I currently measure timekeeping with an app called "WatchTracker".  It is a manual app where I record the time at various intervals. Its a nice app that is dependent on how accurate I am at hitting "Tap Here" when the second hand hits the indicated time.

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8 hours ago, TKH said:

All that said, you are correct, Tiktok, the lease expensive and invasive idea is to demagnetize it. Since such devices only run $10.00, I should have done that first. 

Magnetized watches run faster, because hairsping coils stay closer or touch each other. But your watch appears to runs slightly slow, but still within specs. And Seiko SARBs have good anti-magnetic properties (4,800 A/m), as indicated by the reversed U symbol with one line below it.
In this case nothing will change exposing it to a demagnetizer.

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27 minutes ago, jdm said:

Magnetized watches run faster, because hairsping coils stay closer or touch each other. But your watch appears to runs slightly slow, yet still within specs. And Seiko SARBs have good anti-magnetic properties (4,800 A/m), as indicated by the reversed U symbol with one line below it.
In this case nothing will change exposing it to a demagnetizer.

JDM: Where is the (4,800 A/m) noted?

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