Elgin Pioneer 8 Day Aircraft Clock

[Tmuir]

I received the Elgin clock today and all things considered it appears to be in reasonable condition, just all seized up with 70 year old oil and grease.

It arrived fully wound and not running.

This is the first time I've attempted to service an aircraft clock and letting down the mainspring was done safely, but was certainly more tricky than a pocket watch.

Being this is an 8 day clock it obviously has an extra wheel on it, but I'm unsure on how to proceed with dismantling with the wheel outside the plates. If you look at the picture below it appears that the wheel is just pressed on and the little brass 'Bobbin' (Unsure on what the correct term is for this part) that sits on top of the wheel has grooves on it. Is this so you can leaver or pull the brass part off releasing the wheel?

I'm looking for advice on how to remove this wheel.

I'm also guessing I would use oils and greases like this is just a large pocketwatch.

[clockboy]

It looks just like a friction fit wheel to me but someone with more experience might be able to give better advice. 

[oldhippy]

Clockboy is correct it is friction fitted. The best and safest way is remove it with a correct fitting punch. I used to do this over a vice opened out so it supported the plate and between the vice place a bundled up cloth so when it was punched free it would fall into the cloth and not on the floor. Be careful not to damage the plate and wheel works. Pocket watch oil will work fine on the train but something a little finer for the escapement and a clock oil for the main spring.

[Tmuir]

I've found a few example of Elgin A11 clocks which look almost identical to this clock. I think the A11 was the evolution of this clock and repair manuals are available for them for a few dollars.

I may invest in one before proceeding any further, would hate to break something on it.

Oldhippy are you saying set the plat up on an open vice and use a stake fine enough to tap out the shaft from the wheel?

I've done this before on stuck cannon pinions, but never on something this fine, or valuable.

[oldhippy]

Correct.

[Tmuir]

I've ordered the A11 repair manual and I'm waiting for that to arrive before I do anything else.

I also had a win searching the National Archives of Australia and found the title of a document.

' RAAF - Court of Inquiry - Loss of Pioneer Kollsman Clock (3310-2-A-4806) from Wirraway A20-109 at Laverton about 24/10/1940 '

So I now can confirm that these clocks were used in Wirraways which gives a lot of weight to this clock being from the Wirraway A20-343

[Tmuir]

Been a while since I updated this one.

Yes the wheel was just a friction fit wheel.

It was removed using a Bergeon 30671.7, Watch hands, No Touch

Finally got around to cleaning the movement and discovered another issue that was staring me in the face.

You can even see the issue in the photo of the movement above, but to make it easier I've added another arrow to the picture to show the problem.

I'm either going to have to tool up and start cutting wheels or find another movement to get the wheel from.

 

[khunter]

Ive seen a couple parts movements on ebay but not many, parts for these are very scarce. I ended up having to order a balance staff for mine from Otto Frei, and it was NOT cheap.

[Tmuir]

As wheels go, its probably one of the easier ones to do as there is no crossing out of the spokes, although I would need to make a square hole reamer and get the correct profile cutter.

I've already got a small mill and dividing head, so making the wheel is definitely possible, but not something I was planning attempting for a while yet.

[vinn3]

3 hours ago, khunter said:

Ive seen a couple parts movements on ebay but not many, parts for these are very scarce. I ended up having to order a balance staff for mine from Otto Frei, and it was NOT cheap.

    very good display mount.   if you have trouble finding a click to let um down,  just remove the balance and fork.  vin

[khunter]

1 hour ago, vinn3 said:

    very good display mount.   if you have trouble finding a click to let um down,  just remove the balance and fork.  vin

Thanks, I made that yesterday. It looks a little wide now that I have it together but it'll work. I noticed when I had mine out of the case that letting down a fully wound mainspring would be pretty scary, so I didn't even attempt it. Best to let it run down on its own, assuming it runs of course. 

[oldhippy]

You should never remove the balance and pallets and let a movement just run down. It can cause any amount of damage.

[vinn3]

18 hours ago, khunter said:

Thanks, I made that yesterday. It looks a little wide now that I have it together but it'll work. I noticed when I had mine out of the case that letting down a fully wound mainspring would be pretty scary, so I didn't even attempt it. Best to let it run down on its own, assuming it runs of course. 

   i like leting run down on its own.   if it often stops,  put it near the stove and upside down.  this might tell if the the main spring is the problem.  any way,  the balance and fork will come out.  vin

[Tmuir]

To let it down I just put on thick leather gloves and held my thumb against the winding wheel, released the click and let the wheel turn slowly against the friction of the glove.

I did this as I could not see any other way to do it as you need to remove the movement from the case to get to the click and the winding wheel stays with the case.

I didn't really like doing it this way, but could see no other way.

I also agree with what oldhippy is saying

[oldhippy]

That is correct, when there is no other way. It prevents damage. 

[HuskyDog]

I have just been handed a Pioneer aircraft clock  880-43 on the dial for overhaul.  The split ring takes the (domed) glass off the dial and there are three blanking screws in the back with then reveals three more screws which I assume are the movement screws.  The hand setting/winder it at the bottom.  I presume the movement comes out through the front but there is something holding it in place.  How do I get the movement out of the case?  Chris

[oldhippy]

Could you upload some photos for me. 

[HuskyDog]

Apologlassgies for the delay in responding to request for photos.  As you can see there are movement screws visible through the three blanking screws and the regulation through the larger aperture.  The whole movement rattles around when the glass is removed but it still won't come out!  Thanks for any suggestions!

[oldhippy]

What is this for (red arrow) Are there any screws on the side of the case? 

[HuskyDog]

This gives access to the rear pivot of the winding/hand setting knob seen on the front below the dial. See second picture in sequence for internals behind this screw. There is a spring clip which holds the gearing in place and I am loathe to remove this as it would be seriously difficult to replace it again.

 Chris 

[HuskyDog]

There are no other fixings on the side of the case which is ?bakelite

[oldhippy]

What a sod this is. How about removing the hands and see if that dial will lift off. 

[watchweasol]

Hi  I think OHs suggestion has some mileage in it, TMuir (Australia) a site member has done these before, perhaps he may have some ideas. 

[Tmuir]

Sorry for the late reply, been busy lately and not online here.

That case is slightly different to mine, but should come out the same way.

Remove the crystal from the front by removing the split ring which it looks like you have already done.

Don't worry about the winding knob you don't need to touch it, it says in the case.

You don't need to remove the large blanking screw with ADJ next to it, that is to just give you access to he regulator when it is in the case.

You need to remove the smaller screws you can see on the back, mine only has 2, but yours looks to have 3.

Certainly the one to the left of the ADJ screw cover and the one opposite that, but it looks like yours has a third screw.

Once you have removed these screws the movement will come out the front, you may need to angle the top (12 o'clock) part of the dial first so the winder disengages for the movement.

[Tmuir]

Look after the mainspring as replacement ones are hard to come by, the mainspring in mine is tired and I've yet to source a replacement and the old 'blue steel' ones that turn up on ebay are a risk to fit as they can have corrosion on them causing them to break causing serious damage to the movement.