vostok Differences between Vostok 24XX parts

[VWatchie]

Differences between Vostok 24XX parts: Introduction

I like the Vostok 24xx movements for several reasons, one of them being that they are so affordable. A mistake made never spells financial disaster. They have been reliable Russian/Soviet union workhorses for decades with (perhaps to some) surprisingly good accuracy. Another reason and the reason for this thread is that the parts of these movements most often are interchangeable, but not always!

Most of the time the parts used in these movements (2409, 2414, 2415, and 2416 being some of the most popular) are interchangeable, and the sellers on eBay often mix and match parts from non-working movements to build a working watch. For example, don’t be surprised if you find a train wheel bridge stamped 2409 (w/o date complication) mounted on a 2414 (w/ date complication) or vice versa.

As far as I know the Vostok 24xx movements have been in production since the early 1970-ties, and there are sometimes slight differences between the same parts between these movements and between generations of these movements. The purpose of this thread is to try to document these differences to facilitate any work made on these movements.

I’m a hobbyist, and what follows are my personal observations. I make mistakes and sometimes draw the wrong conclusions. When and if you spot my errors, please let me know!

I encourage anyone with any experience of the differences between the parts of these Vostok 24XX movements to contribute. Thank you!

My first topic will be about the click. Please see the next post!

[VWatchie]

Differences between Vostok 24XX parts: The Click

I’ve seen two types of Vostok 24XX click wheels and they are usually not interchangeable as the click spring needs to be mounted differently on top of the train wheel bridge.

Above is a picture of the first type of click, and it seems to me to be the most common type of click.

As can be seen in the above picture the “type 1” click spring hole is farther away from the ratchet wheel than the click spring hole for the “type 2” click (shown in the next picture).

The above picture shows the other type of click that I’ve seen. As can be seen, the click spring goes in the opposite direction compared to the type 1 click spring. Hence the click spring hole in the bridge has a different location, which is shown next.

The above is not a very a very good picture but I hope it fulfils its purpose of showing the location of the click spring hole for the “type 2” click.

As can be seen in the above picture, I’ve seen some train wheel bridges having two holes for the click spring depending on whether you have a type 1 or a type 2 click wheel. The location of the type 2 click spring hole in the picture could be somewhat off as the picture has been photoshopped by me to add it.

EDIT: Looking at the type 1 click wheel (a bit closer) it could be that it could be mounted with the click spring in any of the two locations. Haven't tried it though.

Edited January 20, 2018 by VWatchie

[jdm]

Not a question, topic moved.

[VWatchie]

I'm afraid I made a mistake calling the "barrel bridge" a "train wheel bridge" in my previous post: "Differences between Vostok 24XX parts: The Click".

[VWatchie]

Differences between Vostok 24XX parts: The Mainspring Barrel

I’ve seen two types of Vostok 24xx mainspring barrels, and although similar they are not compatible. I learned this the hard way.

As I had just finished servicing the above “Wostok Made in USSR” (I believe called “Sun Rise”), I tried to wind it fully, but half way through the click slipped and created a "chilling sound" in the train. Fortunately the watch survived (well, it’s Russian so I’m not too surprised ;)). The problem, as I later learned, was that I had fitted the watch with a brand new mainspring barrel.

When investigating the source of the problem I noticed that the ratchet wheel was slightly wiggling in its slot on the barrel bridge. When the mainspring tension became too strong it would make the ratchet wheel misaligned with the click. Investigating further I could, to my surprise, conclude that the mainspring arbor was "too tall", and that was what made the ratchet wheel wiggle.

At this point I compared the brand new barrel with some old barrels, and noticed the following differences.

The new arbor is 0.2 mm taller than the old arbor.

The new barrel has a slight elevation which the old one lacks. However, the inside and outside diameters of the two barrels appear to be identical.

Same with the new barrel lid; it has a slight elevation which the old one lacks. Other than that the dimensions seem to be identical.

As far as I can tell, there’s no difference in design or dimensions between the new and old mainsprings (although I'm not 100 % sure) as long as they are for the same calibre. For example, a mainspring for a 2409 will fit both the new and old barrels, and a mainspring for a 2415 too will fit any of the two types of barrels. However, the mainsprings themselves are differently designed for manual (2409/2414) and automatic movements (2415/2416). For example, at meranom.com (which sells spare parts) they sell barrels for 2409 (manual), 2414 (manual), and 2416 (automatic), but .not for the 2415 (automatic). I would assume the mainspring and barrel for the 2416 is suitable for the 2415 as well. Do note, however, that all of these barrels are of the new type with the taller arbor and the elevation on the barrel and barrel lid.

 

[VWatchie]

At the end of my previous post about The Click, I wrote the following:

"EDIT: Looking at the type 1 click wheel (a bit closer) it could be that it could be mounted with the click spring in any of the two locations. Haven't tried it though."

I've now tried this and could conclude that the "type 1 click spring hole" must be used with the "type 1 click", and that the "type 2 click spring hole" must be used with the "type 2 click". I guess the barrel bridges manufactured with two click spring holes is a convenience so that it should be possible to use any of the two types of click wheels (depending on what type of click wheel you,  or Vostok, happen to have at hand).

[JohnL]

I found a differences with the centre wheel and canon pinion on a 2409 and 2414A when I tried using the centre wheel from a 2409 in a 2414A. They look identical, but the notch for the canon pinion is obviously slightly higher up the shaft on one. The canon pinions differ by 0.5 mm in height. The canon pinion in the 2414A is 2.5mm tall, the one in the 2409 2.0mm tall. The height of the centre wheel for both is 3.6mm. The canon pinion for the 2414A won't work with the centre wheel from the 2409. 

[Neverenoughwatches]

2 hours ago, JohnL said:

I found a differences with the centre wheel and canon pinion on a 2409 and 2414A when I tried using the centre wheel from a 2409 in a 2414A. They look identical, but the notch for the canon pinion is obviously slightly higher up the shaft on one. The canon pinions differ by 0.5 mm in height. The canon pinion in the 2414A is 2.5mm tall, the one in the 2409 2.0mm tall. The height of the centre wheel for both is 3.6mm. The canon pinion for the 2414A won't work with the centre wheel from the 2409. 

these need to match up, i did something similar when i started , used a cannon pinion from a calibre family, the detent was off and pushed the pinion tight onto the plate, took me ages to find the issue.

[JohnL]

My purpose with my last post was to add to the thread as the OP wrote : "The purpose of this thread is to try to document these differences to facilitate any work made on these movements."

With that in mind: Is there any reason why the balance assembly from a 2414A can't be used in a 2416b? I won't post why, if there isn't a known difference I may post the issue I'm seeing elsewhere. 

[JohnL]

On 2/4/2018 at 6:06 PM, VWatchie said:

Differences between Vostok 24XX parts: The Mainspring Barrel

https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4650/39798690771_a5eb8f7147.jpg

I’ve seen two types of Vostok 24xx mainspring barrels, and although similar they are not compatible. I learned this the hard way.

https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4723/25209825157_6e4ac8f649_z.jpg
As I had just finished servicing the above “Wostok Made in USSR” (I believe called “Sun Rise”), I tried to wind it fully, but half way through the click slipped and created a "chilling sound" in the train. Fortunately the watch survived (well, it’s Russian so I’m not too surprised ;)). The problem, as I later learned, was that I had fitted the watch with a brand new mainspring barrel.

When investigating the source of the problem I noticed that the ratchet wheel was slightly wiggling in its slot on the barrel bridge. When the mainspring tension became too strong it would make the ratchet wheel misaligned with the click. Investigating further I could, to my surprise, conclude that the mainspring arbor was "too tall", and that was what made the ratchet wheel wiggle.

At this point I compared the brand new barrel with some old barrels, and noticed the following differences.

https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4608/25209825367_2917d4bf41_z.jpg
The new arbor is 0.2 mm taller than the old arbor.

https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4721/25209825247_5df66969f9_z.jpg
The new barrel has a slight elevation which the old one lacks. However, the inside and outside diameters of the two barrels appear to be identical.

https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4648/25209825347_26f699749b_z.jpg
Same with the new barrel lid; it has a slight elevation which the old one lacks. Other than that the dimensions seem to be identical.

As far as I can tell, there’s no difference in design or dimensions between the new and old mainsprings (although I'm not 100 % sure) as long as they are for the same calibre. For example, a mainspring for a 2409 will fit both the new and old barrels, and a mainspring for a 2415 too will fit any of the two types of barrels. However, the mainsprings themselves are differently designed for manual (2409/2414) and automatic movements (2415/2416). For example, at meranom.com (which sells spare parts) they sell barrels for 2409 (manual), 2414 (manual), and 2416 (automatic), but .not for the 2415 (automatic). I would assume the mainspring and barrel for the 2416 is suitable for the 2415 as well. Do note, however, that all of these barrels are of the new type with the taller arbor and the elevation on the barrel and barrel lid.

 

Just to complement what VWatchie posted previously. Photo showing new barrel and arbor when used in an old watch. As VWatchie described, when the screw is in place the ratchet wheel can wobble quite a bit. Naturally only found this post after buying the mainsprings.

[VWatchie]

On 10/26/2024 at 6:05 PM, JohnL said:

The canon pinion for the 2414A won't work with the centre wheel from the 2409. 

Valuable information! And it makes sense, I suppose, to make some extra room for the 2414 calendar wheel!?

By the way, it's fantastic to see an update in this thread, which I started many years ago and thought was dead! 

On 10/27/2024 at 7:59 PM, JohnL said:

Is there any reason why the balance assembly from a 2414A can't be used in a 2416b? I won't post why, if there isn't a known difference I may post the issue I'm seeing elsewhere. 

I didn't know this. Can you elaborate on this thread? It would be great, and I'm sure future readers would appreciate it.

[JohnL]

I fell down this rabbit hole after buying a 2409 amphibian and discovering an issue with the keyless works. Research suggested it should be simple enough to address and, well you can guess the rest. I believe, having read a number of your service notes on Vostoks and put into a epub to read on my tablet, that you started on them for the same reason: relatively inexpensive and the understanding that, in theory, all the parts are interchangeable in the 24xx series. 

Re. Third wheel and canon pinion: My conclusion was the same as yours, to make room for the calendar wheel. The hands won't fit if the calendar complication is in place. 

With regard to my question on the balance assembly, I haven't faced an issue previously with fitting the balance cock on the 2409's and 2414A's I've looked at, though admittedly that's about four of each. However when trying a balance assembly from three or so other Vostoks on a 2416b the pins were very tight going into the main plate. Similarly when trying the assembly from the 2409 on the 2414a I was salvaging from. It may well be coincidence. The 2416b I'm working on came without a balance assembly, and I'm not taking apart another just to check balance assemblies. I got this one to prep myself for working on the others. 

The other reason I wondered about the balance assembly being different is I've tried two and the rates are slow. My thinking was that if there's no known difference in assemblies, then it's obviously something else which I've got to find out, but I should ask just in case there is. 

By the by; I put the arbor from the old mainspring barrel in the new barrel with spring. Seems to work. If the actual mainspring is also different..... 

Edited October 29 by JohnL
bad grammar

[JohnL]

A quick reply: I got a balance assembly from another donor movement (a 2414a, same as the others I tried) to fit perfectly. There's a timing issue that looks very, very likely to be the result of a non parallel regulation pin, but that's for another day. There can be issues with balance assemblies fitting the main plates, but it wouldn't appear to be because of differences between different models.