What a difference a de-mag makes. Oiling question.

[MrRoundel]

After having this freshly serviced Wittnauer 11SR/AS1707 pick up about 3 hours overnight, I decided to take a look at the hairspring situation. I had cleaned it in my US cleaner and demagnetized the whole watch. Still, it turns out that coils were sticking together and causing a very short swing of the balance. I demagnetized the balance assembly again, but the coils still seemed to have a liking for one another. I then gave it a dunk in some naptha, followed by a dry in boxwood dust, and demagnetized it again. Voila! The balance now had healthy amplitude, and I'm certain will keep better time than it was through the night. Low bar, huh?

After giving myself a little pat on the back (Too soon, as usual.), I glanced at the movement under glass and saw that it had stopped. Gah! I thought that maybe the mainspring was run down, as I hadn't wound it since last night. Nope. I got it to run a bit and watched the visible center-wheel stop advancing, which was followed quickly by the balance stopping. I applied a bit of pressure to its spokes and the watch started up again, running with good motion. I'm now wondering if a piece of dust or something got in one of the pinions or something? I blew it out a touch, and it's still running now, 5 minutes later.

I'm also wondering whether or not I did a bad thing by oiling the center jewel. I may have read that I shouldn't do this on a center-seconds movement. Is that true? Is it a bad idea to oil that center jewel (See image.)? Thanks ahead of time for input. Cheers.

Edited January 5, 2018 by MrRoundel
Changed "should' to "shouldn't".

[Tiktok]

I always oil the centre seconds jewel in the picture, some people however don't oil the other long pivot on the other side of the wheel depending on the calibre.

The jewels you wouldn't oil would be the pallet pivot jewels.

Are you sure you have checked all of your end shakes, sounds like something is a miss for it to just jam up.

After cleaning the balance again did you oil the end stones on the balance again, this can improve the amplitude by a massive amount if you have cleaning fluid in there or no oil at all.

 

[jdm]

12 minutes ago, Tiktok said:

I always oil the centre seconds jewel in the picture, some people however don't oil the other long pivot on the other side of the wheel depending on the calibre.

What would be the logic for that, oral tradition possibly? Metal-to-metal linear friction with a decent velocity needs a mediation lubrication agent, and I've seen that confirmed in any service sheet so far, 

[Tiktok]

11 minutes ago, jdm said:

What would be the logic for that, oral tradition possibly? Metal-to-metal linear friction with a decent velocity needs a mediation lubrication agent, and I've seen confirmed in any service sheet so far, 

If you are referring to some people not oiling the long pivot.........I presume it's because they are unsure on where exactly to oil it on some calibres and too much oil or oiling it in the wrong place can effect the amplitude.

I generally use 9010 for the jewelled side and a small amount of 9010 on the long pivot side.

its surprising how many watchmakers I have spoken to over the years that don't oil the long pivot and let it run dry, you would wonder how many return jobs they get!

 

Edited January 5, 2018 by Tiktok

[MrRoundel]

Thanks, folks. I am going to have to investigate a bit deeper here, as the movement has been stopping. there are no hands on it, so it's not above-dial. I actually gave the train-bridge a little tap with my fingernail when it stopped this time, and it took off running. The return of The Fonz? 

The reason I did this is because it started running when I slightly dropped the movement in the holder last time, so the little  jarring is freeing something somewhere. But where? Back to it now. Thanks again. Cheers.

 

[SSTEEL]

Sounds to me that dried up oil where there shouldn't be oil in the first place causing your issue.

[Tiktok]

33 minutes ago, MrRoundel said:

Thanks, folks. I am going to have to investigate a bit deeper here, as the movement has been stopping. there are no hands on it, so it's not above-dial. I actually gave the train-bridge a little tap with my fingernail when it stopped this time, and it took off running. The return of The Fonz? 

The reason I did this is because it started running when I slightly dropped the movement in the holder last time, so the little  jarring is freeing something somewhere. But where? Back to it now. Thanks again. Cheers.

 

I notice on the picture the stem is not in the watch, are you sure it's not in the hand set position.

Make sure everything is cleaned properly.

If you are stripping it down again you need to check all the endshakes, inspect every wheel (teeth, pinions and pivots for wear).

Spin the train before putting the pallets and balance back in, it should spin freely.

Then check the escapement and the balance is functioning properly.

Edited January 5, 2018 by Tiktok

[MrRoundel]

Thanks, Tiktok. I checked the train's freedom with a blower, and got a good spin on the wheels. And the watch did run through the night when the amplitude was awful. It's now been running in dial-up position for a couple of hours and hasn't stopped. I gave it the Fonzie treatment to see if that would make it stop and it did not. I'm about to flip it over to see if it only stops in dial-down position.

Good thought on the setting-position possibility. But no, it's in winding position.

It's my own watch, so I don't have a customer to deal with or anything. I'll take my time and get it done right. Thanks for your assistance. Cheers.

[MrRoundel]

On 1/5/2018 at 1:38 PM, SSTEEL said:

Sounds to me that dried up oil where there shouldn't be oil in the first place causing your issue.

Well, SSTEEL, I think you nailed this one. Yesterday I found that this Wittnauer 11SR wouldn't run at all, so I decided to get in there and have another look. I remembered there being a watch that I worked on recently on which I accidentally oiled one of the pallet pivots. This may well have been the one, as there was some notables sluggishness in the escapement. I re-cleaned the train-wheels and their bridges. I did not oil the jewel at the top of the center-wheel bridge, as I figured there might be a gumming up issue there. The train seemed fine. Then I put the pallet-fork in and gave the watch a couple of winds. Well, the pallet-fork still had the slows, as if it was gummed up at the pivots. So I ended up pegging them out until I was sure the point of the wood went all the way through the hole-jewels. I then replaced the fork and gave the watch a couple winds, and the fork snapped to the sides of the banking pins as it should. Success.

The watch is running great and keeping excellent time now. This is probably something it hasn't done in many years. Sometimes I just have to walk away from certain watches for a while before getting back in there and doing it right. It's done right now. Thanks for you advice, it was spot-on. Except for the "dried up oil" part. It was new lubrication from moi that messed things up. Live and learn. Cheers.

[SSTEEL]

Great to hear!  

[Alastair]

Personally I always oil both ends of the centre seconds pinion/wheel....

This part is most/more prone to corrosion if for some reason moisture gets in the case. This pinion/shaft is holding the seconds hand--which acts as a heatsink, therefore that shaft will be fractionally cooler than the rest of the bulk of the movement, the result is condensation usually at the pivots, it then rusts/seizes solid--Or in the case of Accutron 214 gets twisted right off on the chaton jewel side, but strangely the watch keeps on running quite often......