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JONICURN

Rolex 1570 losing time

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Hi, i have a Rolex 1570 movement that loses 40 minutes a day only in dial up position.  All other positions, while on the timegrapher, measure really good.  This watch had complete overhaul by a Rolex certified watchmaker in California less than 6 months ago.   Where should i look for fault?

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So, great news, and thanks to all the helpful members involved...I fixed it!  Turns out, I had to lie down so that I could view the movement in a "dial up" position.  I could see the hairspring was erratic and almost stopping at times.  I looked for any rubbing of the balance and could find none.  Long story short, the hairspring stud wasn't seated deep enough in its holder and was ever so slightly tickling the hairspring as it oscillates.  I removed the balance, loosened the hairspring stud, reseated it and tightened the stud screw.  Now it's keeping great time in all positions and the timegrapgher shows it.  I would never have figured this out without the help of this forum and could never attempt to repair watches without Mark's videos.  0208181957a_HDR.thumb.jpg.659c05613b273fb0227c28cfb5f112e8.jpgBy the way, the jeweler who overhauled the watch said their warranty didn't transfer to other owners.  Bless you guys.  Here is a photo prior to my repair...

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I think the 1570 is very similar to the 3135 if so it could be the end shake of the balance which is adjustable on these caliburs. However I would return it to the experienced watchmaker as the adjustments to the balance may not be fault. Just another thought by any chance has it become magnetised. 

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You say the effect only occurs in dial up position. So in my opinion it may be an issue with the bearing on the balance cock side. I would take out the shock absorber and clean the jewels. Have a look at the balance pivot if it looks fine and also clean it. Then reassemble the whole thing with correct lubrication and try again on the timegrapher.

 

The old 1570 is quite different from the 3135 and doesn't allow endshake manipulation by screws.

 

Sorry for the terrible english, no native speaker.:wacko:

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Usually when somebody works on a Rolex as a professional they usually have a one to two-year warranty. Except  if the customer decides to play with the Rolex the warranty usually expires instantaneously. Makes it hard to diagnose a problem if somebody else's been playing with the watch.

 

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On ‎1‎/‎4‎/‎2018 at 3:50 AM, Delgetti said:

You say the effect only occurs in dial up position. So in my opinion it may be an issue with the bearing on the balance cock side. I would take out the shock absorber and clean the jewels. Have a look at the balance pivot if it looks fine and also clean it. Then reassemble the whole thing with correct lubrication and try again on the timegrapher.

 

The old 1570 is quite different from the 3135 and doesn't allow endshake manipulation by screws.

 

Sorry for the terrible english, no native speaker.:wacko:

Winston;  would it not be easer to just remove  the balance for inspection  and repair, test the gear track running and then replace the balance for a test run on the original problem?  Vin

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Thanks all.  In the dial up position, the timegrapher screen looks like snow and the beats sound irregular.  No line uniformity whatsoever on the screen.  Just curious as to why you think it may be the balance cock jewel and not the dial side balance jewel.  Also, with the issue being only in one position, magnetism wouldn't be an issue huh?  I'll upload photos soon. 

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1 hour ago, JONICURN said:

Thanks all.  In the dial up position, the timegrapher screen looks like snow and the beats sound irregular.  No line uniformity whatsoever on the screen.  Just curious as to why you think it may be the balance cock jewel and not the dial side balance jewel. Also, with the issue being only in one position, magnetism wouldn't be an issue huh?  I'll upload photos soon. 

Because when dial up, the balance staff sits on the upper (cock) jewel.
Magnetism doesn't cause '"snowy" beat.

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Hi JONICURN,  your watch has been serviced by a Rolex accredited watchmaker and you will have a warranty as long as you do not touch the watch. In this instance return the watch for re-instatement to the person who fixed it last time. If for any reason this is not possible then inspect bearings on the balance cock side. Check the pivot and endstone etc. Just like vinn3 recommended. Check all balance parameters as well. Regards, Mike.

Edited by ecodec
spelling error

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Greetings from Italy Milan,
I have a lot of experience, I worked a lot inside the Rolex and I make a conclusion.
the timeghaphe with snow marks are, first. mainspring tired, to be replaced, then you have to check the pivot, center wheel, then the big wheel, which connects to the barrel, if it is not him! you have to do a calibrating, without the hairspring. with microstella key calibration, on the screws, then, when the balance, stop, if it does not move anymore. then, put the hairspring.and try to see if you still see the snow on the timegraphe 

I think I was helpful
greetings from Italy

Mario

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On 1/4/2018 at 5:50 AM, Delgetti said:

You say the effect only occurs in dial up position. So in my opinion it may be an issue with the bearing on the balance cock side. I would take out the shock absorber and clean the jewels. Have a look at the balance pivot if it looks fine and also clean it. Then reassemble the whole thing with correct lubrication and try again on the timegrapher.

 

The old 1570 is quite different from the 3135 and doesn't allow endshake manipulation by screws.

 

Sorry for the terrible english, no native speaker.:wacko:

Thanks, I did just that and the pivot was straight/intact and stones were clean and oiled.  No changes though. 

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Looking at the timographer readings it is almost certainly the escape that is at fault. Either the balance or pallet.I have found when the beat is not consistent in all positions then the hairspring is not staying centred or is not balanced. By any chance have the timing screws been adjusted on the balance.

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When you are doing the tests in the photo what was the windup state of the watch? In other words is it fully wound and usually when you fully wind to let it run about half an hour to an hour or is it at the end of 24 hours? Reason for this question is looks like in one of the pendant positions you amplitude is 211 and according to Rolex specifications at the end of 24 hours a worse case should be 200.

Then the watch was serviced six months ago was there always a problem? Or did the problem suddenly pop up like if it was dropped for instance or was is a gradual problem ? The term Rolex certified watchmakers quite interesting as I don't think Rolex certifies watchmakers.

Then did you take the jewel assembly out clean it and verify preferably with a microscope that there is no chips pitting or any physical problems with the cap stone?

So in the Dial up position we see garbage the timing machine is hearing something this is where having a different timing machine with audio would be nice. Often times when you listen to a watch having issues it gives you a clue as to where the problem might be. For instance the hairspring rubbing or bumping into things makes a nice musical sound. Balance wheel bumping into things makes a much more dramatic sound.

So you get to be our eyes and ears and do a test. Look at the watch in a good position preferably dial down look at the balance wheel is it wobbling up and down? Listen to the watch look at how it's oscillating then rotate around to the bad position now how do things look and sound?

 

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Sorry I can't help, but this thread is a great tutorial in what to look for! Commenting as a place holder, but watching with interest and hope you get it sorted and report back on what the final diagnosis and cure was.

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The watch was fully wound when tested.  I bought the watch recently second hand after service was done.  And I have the receipt.  I noticed it losing time after lying it face up over night. Then I put it on the timegrapher and got these results.  The watch hasn't been dropped since service.  I removed the cap stone, examined it and found no flaws.  I wish I could put it on the sound Mic you're talking about but I will Do what you said and look/listen to the balance in different positions.  I will let you know if I find anything.  I really appreciate your knowledge in this. 

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2 minutes ago, Pip said:

Sorry I can't help, but this thread is a great tutorial in what to look for! Commenting as a place holder, but watching with interest and hope you get it sorted and report back on what the final diagnosis and cure was.

Will do, thanks for your interest

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Interesting thread this is.  I love (well hate) these mysteries in watch repair. Love them because they are challenging, hate them if it's a watch I want to wear (it can take forever to find those uncommon gremlins).

My guess is that the watch is losing all of it's amplitude dial up. The result is the balance barely moves, but there is enough potential energy in the gear train to release the escape wheel when the impulse jewel touches the pallet. I would check the pivots and jewels for the pallet and escape wheel, paying particular attention to top pivots and jewels.

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5 hours ago, jdm said:

...

Actually this is where the timograher's have their limits. To truly analyse a fault and to identify the fault you need more help by using a better and more professional analyser. Mark uses software by a UK guy Graham Baxter but I am sure there are others as well.  

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4 hours ago, clockboy said:

Actually this is where the timograher's have their limits. To truly analyse a fault and to identify the fault you need more help by using a better and more professional analyser. Mark uses software by a UK guy Graham Baxter but I am sure there are others as well.  

Correct, watch below Mark demonstrating the importance of listening and looking at the beat waveform.

 

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  I remember this conversation yesterday at work and asked the other watchmaker who does Rolex watches. First thing he said was look at the jewels. Then while you're looking at them look at the pivots. I asked how close the balance wheel was to the center wheel this comes up occasionally with other watches and he didn't think so at all apparently quite a distance. Then he made a different suggestion which I don't think applies here. That is he said they hairspring stud was too high hairspring would rub on the balance bridge. But the problem with this is hairspring studs don't move by themselves usually. So when the watch left servicing it was running fine now it's not.

So here's a long shot for Marks video is problem was dial down our problem is dial up. So personally I still go for the jewels and or balance pivots. That's where removing the balance wheel and looking at both pivots making sure they look identical for length would be a good approach. Then When you're doing it let's look for a long shot. If the pallet fork bridge screws are loose we see in Marks video they rub on the bottom of the balance wheel. I don't know about Rolex watches but I wonder how much play the screws have if their loose as far as movement Goes? So in other words if you turn the watch over the screws are hanging could they hang down far enough to touch the balance wheel and cause the problem? Then going the other direction they fall back in the hole and not rub on the balance wheel even though in marks video that's what they were doing. This is where listening and looking when the watch is having a problem would be quite helpful versus wild guesses.

 

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The best tool to find faults are the eyes in your head. There are so many things that can cause this. The most common will be from the effect of gravity on various parts since this is a single position issue.

 

Hairspring rubbing something.

Hairspring falling into an awkward position

Staff/pivot bent or broken.

Balance stop spring in wrong position that ends up interfering with balance in said position

 

Trying to think of more I've seen in the past.......

 

Sent from my Moto G (5) Plus using Tapatalk

 

 

 

 

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