What Can You Do After Adjusting Watch Timing Advance Or Retarding The Balance Has Come To It's Maximum

[Legarm]

is there any way to adjust watch timing after advance or retarding the balance has come to it's maximum?

[WillFly]

If the movement is on maximum fast or slow and can't be adjusted further, this may be a sign that it's dirty or magnetised. This has been my experience with a few of my watches. If it's neither of those two, then there may be something more serious with the balance.

[chrisbuxton27]

Have you made your adjustments just from point C or have you adjusted from point A ?

[anilv]

Will is correct.. using the (+) (-) is not the solution to a fast/slow running watch.

 

You need to service it, start with a new mainspring if possible and fine tune it with the hairspring adjustment. The adjustment can only correct a few minuts error per day. Any watch off by more than 5 minutes a day probably has other issues. One common problem is the watch may have been magnetised. Another is a dirty hairspring where the coils stick together..

 

If you have replaced the hairspring then the hairspring may be out of sync.. this can be corrected by moving the hairspring collet around but if you have succesfully replaced a haispring you should know this already.

 

Anil

[Legarm]

Have you made your adjustments just from point C or have you adjusted from point A ?

IMG_1265.JPG

 

I have adjusted from the index regulator, (point A), to the max at point c ( Index). I have not touched the spring stud. Already demagnetized, cleaned etc....

[Legarm]

on reading a lot of the topics on this site, it appears that magnetization crops up as a contributing factor to faults quite a lot. Would it therefore be acceptable to Demagnetize as a matter of course. Or would this not be practicable.

[chrisbuxton27]

This may be bad practice but I actually use slightly magnetised tweezers to pick up tiny screws. I would pick up the screw by its head locate it in its hole, then use a wipe away motion to leave it in place. When I place the screwdriver to the screw head it's never magnetised enough to stick to it. I never have the worry of a screw pinging into oblivion and it works for me to locate the screws faster.

To be on the safe side I always degauss the movement, case and case back as a matter of course.

Could be in for a slating here! Lol

[bytes2doc]

On a related note. I'm also at this point but I'm replacing the balance wheel as I have a broken pivot. How does one disengage the hairspring from the index regulator, point A ? I was expecting a small slot to turn the post out of the way but don't see that.

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[Mark]

This may be bad practice but I actually use slightly magnetised tweezers to pick up tiny screws. I would pick up the screw by its head locate it in its hole, then use a wipe away motion to leave it in place. When I place the screwdriver to the screw head it's never magnetised enough to stick to it. I never have the worry of a screw pinging into oblivion and it works for me to locate the screws faster.

To be on the safe side I always degauss the movement, case and case back as a matter of course.

Could be in for a slating here! Lol

Definitely not a slating but I would rather recommend having a quality pair of tweezers and practice with them :)

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[Legarm]

On a related note. I'm also at this point but I'm replacing the balance wheel as I have a broken pivot. How does one disengage the hairspring from the index regulator, point A ? I was expecting a small slot to turn the post out of the way but don't see that.

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there should be a slot to insert a small screwdriver, enabling you to tun the regulator through 90 degrees. the slot is on the underside of the regulator, same side as hair spring...... as this link shows

 

http://www.timezonewatchschool.com/WatchSchool/Glossary/Glossary%20-%20Balance%20Assembly/Glossary%20-%20Balance%20Assembly%20-%20/glossary%20-%20balance%20assembly%20-%203.shtml

 

Hope this helps

[Mark]

@Legarm what kind of balance is this? Does it have timing screws on the rim? A pic may be good :)

Regarding demag - do it as a matter of course.

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[Geo]

is there any way to adjust watch timing after advance or retarding the balance has come to it's maximum?

I had this problem with my Seiko Pepsi chronograph. I did all the usual and recommended things, but to no avail. After much pondering and very close inspection with a 10x loupe, I discovered that the stud at the end of the hairspring had been broken off at some point and the spring has been glued in place using epoxy adhesive. It was a very neat job as it was not noticeable without very close examination. The result was a shortened spring which of course made the watch run fast. I purchased a second hand balance assembly and all is now extremely well. [if you read this Roger (Autowind) I still have to case the watch, but your help regarding the other problem will work out OK. Thanks again for that.]

If the watch you are working on is a recent purchase and from an unknown source you may have a similar issue. It's at least worth checking.

[WillFly]

That's an interesting problem and solution, Geo. Have you any idea by how much the original hairspring had been shortened to create the problem. A matter of a few mm, presumably.

[Geo]

I would say no more than two millimetre, but that's a guess. It was certainly that little that it still held it's shape and looked OK. I think the spring had broken right at the stud and it was only the the thickness of the stud short when glued in place.

Edited September 16, 2014 by Geo

[bytes2doc]

there should be a slot to insert a small screwdriver, enabling you to tun the regulator through 90 degrees. the slot is on the underside of the regulator, same side as hair spring...... as this link shows

http://www.timezonewatchschool.com/WatchSchool/Glossary/Glossary%20-%20Balance%20Assembly/Glossary%20-%20Balance%20Assembly%20-%20/glossary%20-%20balance%20assembly%20-%203.shtml

Hope this helps

Nope, that is what I was saying as well but did not find what I was expecting. This balance does not have that. Notice how in the above picture point A is twisted on the regulator arm. It appears that this twist is what holds the spring in place. I straightened this out and the spring comes right out.

Now the end of the spring is "glued" to the end stud, point B in the picture, and come this way when you order the balance spring. Does anyone have experience/advice for taking this off the regulator? It looks like a simple snap fit between the forks, but I don't know if I should try and release some tension on the forks by applying and twisting a screwdriver at the small end of the fork behind the stud.

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[Legarm]

@Legarm what kind of balance is this? Does it have timing screws on the rim? A pic may be good :)

 

 

screws on side ........ pics below.............

 

 

[emso]

You are using the movement holder upside down.

Demagnetize the movement first

Re clean the hairspring/balance wheel

Do you hear the watch making a galoping horse noise?

p.s: sent from my s****y phone so sorry for typing mistakes

Edited September 24, 2014 by emso

[Legarm]

You are using the movement holder upside down.

Demagnetize the movement first

Re clean the hairspring/balance wheel

Do you hear the watch making a galoping horse noise?

p.s: sent from my s****y phone so sorry for typing mistakes

 

You are using the movement holder upside down.  for photo purposes..............

Demagnetize the movement first  ........ done

Re clean the hairspring/balance wheel  ................ done

Do you hear the watch making a galoping horse noise? .... "Galloping" ......... No

[Geo]

Good morning Legarm.

Just another thought, check that the hairspring is not being gripped by the curb pins. It should be free to slide between, if not it will pull or push the spring when you are making adjustments. This would knock the timing all to pot.

[Mark]

Is it me or does the second coil of the hairspring look like its touching the index? If so then this will cause problems.

[Geo]

Good observation Mark. It looks like the fixed pin might be bent inwards, maybe done at some point to remove the balance wheel instead of turning the other.

[Legarm]

Right.......... demagnetized the whole watch again ..... stripped balance down and it does appear distorted. I have had a go at re-forming the coils before on scrap movements...... no real success as they all seem to end up looking like Tagliatele nests ...... :(

I have looked for guides to reform the coils but not a lot I could find........... pic below, any help greatly appreciated.......

 

[Mark]

Yep - thats definitely a problem!

 

Its hard to explain and better shown but in order to resolve this, it's going to require some very gentle manipulation.

 

This won't be easy to explain.. but I will try. In your picture at 10 oclock the coils are pretty much touching. 90ºs to the left of this point (about 8oclock on the picture) on the outer coil is where you will make your adjustment. You will need two pairs of fine tweezers. The first to hold the spring steady at the 90º position and these will be in your left hand and the other to push the spring gently outwards with your right hand.

 

Very very gently because you do not want to kink the spring or twist it. Don't grip the spring with your right tweezers when you push away - just push it with your tweezer tips whilst continuing to grip with your left tweezers. Now you can do this with the spring still on the balance wheel but it's even easier with it off the wheel.

 

And thats the basics - you then work your way around until the coils are even sometimes pulling the spring in and sometimes pushing it out - always gripping with your left tweezers and working it with your right..

 

The stud is also, obviously, in the wrong position and this is a slightly different process to resolve. First get the coils even and then put a pic to show us and I will advise the next stage.

 

I really do need to do some videos on this stuff.

[bobm12]

Mark, this is a great explanation and I got the picture...of course I'm looking forward to a video on this. I got similar hairsprings I'd like to fix and this will help to get me started.

 

By the way, if the coils are bent out of alignment with the horizontal plane (when on the balance wheel and mounted on the cock/watch/something). How do we go as to make the whole hairspring even/flat horizontally?

 

I don't know if my question is clear since I'm finding it hard to put it into words...I don't want to hijack this thread so, would you have me start a new thread instead? 

 

Thank you in advance,

 

Robert

[Legarm]

Yep - thats definitely a problem!

 

Its hard to explain and better shown but in order to resolve this, it's going to require some very gentle manipulation.

 

This won't be easy to explain.. but I will try. In your picture at 10 oclock the coils are pretty much touching. 90ºs to the left of this point (about 8oclock on the picture) on the outer coil is where you will make your adjustment. You will need two pairs of fine tweezers. The first to hold the spring steady at the 90º position and these will be in your left hand and the other to push the spring gently outwards with your right hand.

 

Very very gently because you do not want to kink the spring or twist it. Don't grip the spring with your right tweezers when you push away - just push it with your tweezer tips whilst continuing to grip with your left tweezers. Now you can do this with the spring still on the balance wheel but it's even easier with it off the wheel.

 

And thats the basics - you then work your way around until the coils are even sometimes pulling the spring in and sometimes pushing it out - always gripping with your left tweezers and working it with your right..

 

The stud is also, obviously, in the wrong position and this is a slightly different process to resolve. First get the coils even and then put a pic to show us and I will advise the next stage.

 

I really do need to do some videos on this stuff.

 

Thanks Mark, really really helpful. I will be giving it a try today......... I am slightly worried of trashing another hairspring, but needs must. I will take the spring off the balance, remembering to mark the stud position. I shall post pics of the results.

Once again many thanks.