My First Staking Set Advice

[gpraceman]

7 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

There are some minor problems with descriptions for instance.

Oh we have a website when you swipe some images

https://kanddinverto.weebly.com/

Let becomes interesting is the staking set submit out there for some time and there seems to be a certain degree of mixing and matching. For instance my base is a 18R and are basically has nothing left of the jeweling stuff and none of that is included in the box. I don't even know if I'd have to count whether the description below fits even the box that I have.

Then farther down the pageNotice we get redesigned 600 so that means there must've been a prior 600 and this 600 just to add to the confusion

Then you can go poking around the website it has lots and lots of information

Other than the description that somehow the frame is smaller or different I think all the bits and pieces would fit and you wouldn't build a tell the difference unless you compared it to another one.

 

 

I had been digging around on that website.  It does have lots of good information.  That's where I saw that the Series 600 was a smaller frame.  Looking back again at that site, this is what I was able to glean. 

18 - 1.7"/43mm die plate working surface, 5.7" (144mm) tall, 25 hole die plate

18B - 1.77" (45mm) die plate working surface, 5.75" (146mm) tall, 26 hole (early frames) or 28 hole (later frames) die plate

Series 600 - 1.42"/36.2mm die plate working surface, 5.6"/142mm tall - 26 hole die plate

That seems like pretty minor frame differences.  Both the #18 and Series 600 are "inverto", so that's good.

Many of the sets that I see online look pretty neglected.  I don't mind putting in a bit of elbow grease to clean up a set, but it is hard to tell from photos on the true condition of the stakes.  Many look to be missing a number of stakes and stumps or have a mish-mash of stakes.

I wish I knew of some local antique or second hand store (or even a retiring watchmaker), where I'd to be able to see a set in person.  I thought that I had a line on a local guy, but he never contacted me back and he disappeared off of Craigslist, so no way to reach him now.

[JohnR725]

26 minutes ago, gpraceman said:

I wish I knew of some local antique or second hand store (or even a retiring watchmaker), where I'd to be able to see a set in person.  I thought that I had a line on a local guy, but he never contacted me back and he disappeared off of Craigslist, so no way to reach him now.

Another thought for finding a horological items would be to find other people who are interested in such things. For instance maybe there is a national Association that has chapters scattered all over the place including some in Colorado.

https://www.nawcc.org/local-chapters/?chapter=colorado&submit=Search

Then a lot of times in addition to chapter meetings they pool their resources and have a regional meeting. Unfortunately you missed it

 

[gpraceman]

23 minutes ago, JohnR725 said:

Another thought for finding a horological items would be to find other people who are interested in such things. For instance maybe there is a national Association that has chapters scattered all over the place including some in Colorado.

https://www.nawcc.org/local-chapters/?chapter=colorado&submit=Search

Then a lot of times in addition to chapter meetings they pool their resources and have a regional meeting. Unfortunately you missed it

 

Ah, I wasn't aware that there were NAWCC chapters here in Colorado (I only recently found out about NAWCC).  I shot an email to a couple of chapters.  It would be nice to make some connections with local pros/hobbyists.

[garrettwp]

Hello everyone, I am in the middle of acquiring tools to have a decent setup to start restoring, repairing and servicing pocket watches and watches. I would like to pick up a nice vintage staking set and need some guidance. If this is against forum rules, I apologize. There is a K&D staking set on ebay that looks complete and in good shape, the price is $499. Is this too much for something that looks to be in really good shape? I have bid on a few sets in the past, but have lost and would love to give a good home to a nice set. 

I am very new to staking sets and not sure of prices, if there are things to look out for. I have read this entire thread.

- Garrett

 

[gpraceman]

16 minutes ago, garrettwp said:

Hello everyone, I am in the middle of acquiring tools to have a decent setup to start restoring, repairing and servicing pocket watches and watches. I would like to pick up a nice vintage staking set and need some guidance. If this is against forum rules, I apologize. There is a K&D staking set on ebay that looks complete and in good shape, the price is $499. Is this too much for something that looks to be in really good shape? I have bid on a few sets in the past, but have lost and would love to give a good home to a nice set. 

I am very new to staking sets and not sure of prices, if there are things to look out for. I have read this entire thread.

- Garrett

 

Having watched many of these eBay staking set auctions (and losing out on some of them), that price seems more in line with a K&D 18R Deluxe set, with all of the bells and whistles, in good shape and not missing much.

I haven't quite given up finding a good set online, but I'm trying to find local watchmakers that I may be able to get a line on a set for a less painful price.

[garrettwp]

4 minutes ago, gpraceman said:

Having watched many of these eBay staking set auctions (and losing out on some of them), that price seems more in line with a K&D 18R Deluxe set, with all of the bells and whistles, in good shape and not missing much.

I haven't quite given up finding a good set online, but I'm trying to find local watchmakers that I may be able to get a line on a set for a less painful price.

I just saw this on ebay and picked it up. It looks fairly complete and in decent condition with some cleaning needed to get them looking great. Did I do well or make a mistake? The previous listing looks to have been available since beginning of August and after looking at previous sales, looks to be on the higher side. So when I saw the Moseley available, it looked fairly complete maybe with a piece or two broken and in decent shape.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/145314437968

[gpraceman]

39 minutes ago, garrettwp said:

I just saw this on ebay and picked it up. It looks fairly complete and in decent condition with some cleaning needed to get them looking great. Did I do well or make a mistake? The previous listing looks to have been available since beginning of August and after looking at previous sales, looks to be on the higher side. So when I saw the Moseley available, it looked fairly complete maybe with a piece or two broken and in decent shape.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/145314437968

You'll get a better idea once you have it in hand.  If there are issues like duplicate punches, rust, blocked holes in the punches or die plate, damaged parts, operation of the frame, etc.  These auctions can be a crap shoot, it seems.  Some sets seem to be a conglomeration of whatever parts the seller threw into it to make it a more attractive item.  I've noticed stakes of varying heights (possibly a mix of different brands or from different sets), differing patina (probably from different sets), some where the frame doesn't match the set, and non-staking related parts.  Not being able to check out the set first-hand and just relying on photos and a sparse description is a bit unnerving.

Edited September 21, 2023 by gpraceman

[watchweasol]

Bearing in mind we are just assessing pictures, for the price it looks good and has plenty of stakes and punches. Once you get it in front of you  it will make better sense

[Jon]

4 hours ago, garrettwp said:

I just saw this on ebay and picked it up. It looks fairly complete and in decent condition with some cleaning needed to get them looking great. Did I do well or make a mistake? The previous listing looks to have been available since beginning of August and after looking at previous sales, looks to be on the higher side. So when I saw the Moseley available, it looked fairly complete maybe with a piece or two broken and in decent shape.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/145314437968

Bonus! You've got a balance staff removal tool in that set, which on its own would have been a few quid

[gpraceman]

Curious as to the purpose of the central threaded hole, other than to attract lint?  This is on a K&D Series 600 staking frame.  Most of the Series 600's that I have seen don't have this hole.

[garrettwp]

1 hour ago, watchweasol said:

Bearing in mind we are just assessing pictures, for the price it looks good and has plenty of stakes and punches. Once you get it in front of you  it will make better sense

 

46 minutes ago, Jon said:

Bonus! You've got a balance staff removal tool in that set, which on its own would have been a few quid

Once I get the set, cleaned up and assessed, I will post an update. I am excited to have  piece of history added to my tools and give it purpose again.

[garrettwp]

Just to update everyone on the staking set I ordered. Upon quick inspection, my fears have been met. Most of the stakes are K&D and not Moseley. I would say about 3/4 or more of the stakes are K&D and the remaining still needed to figure out the origins of. I have not gone through to see what stakes I have and if I have any duplicates or broken ones. A little disappointing, but many of you said it is a crap shot on what you get. Going to reach out to the seller to let them know. Looks like I'll need to bid on another set.

[Neverenoughwatches]

21 minutes ago, garrettwp said:

Just to update everyone on the staking set I ordered. Upon quick inspection, my fears have been met. Most of the stakes are K&D and not Moseley. I would say about 3/4 or more of the stakes are K&D and the remaining still needed to figure out the origins of. I have not gone through to see what stakes I have and if I have any duplicates or broken ones. A little disappointing, but many of you said it is a crap shot on what you get. Going to reach out to the seller to let them know. Looks like I'll need to bid on another set.

What is the difference in size. I have a star set , a boley frame and possibly an unmarked favourite stake/jewelling combo. All the stakes fit all of the frames, 4.7mm. 

[nickelsilver]

3 minutes ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

What is the difference in size. I have a star set , a boley frame and possibly an unmarked favourite stake/jewelling combo. All the stakes fit all of the frames, 4.7mm. 

What are the stump "spigot" diameters on your Boley? Most I've seen have been 4mm, which is standard, but a friend had one where they were 5mm.

[gpraceman]

32 minutes ago, garrettwp said:

Just to update everyone on the staking set I ordered. Upon quick inspection, my fears have been met. Most of the stakes are K&D and not Moseley. I would say about 3/4 or more of the stakes are K&D and the remaining still needed to figure out the origins of. I have not gone through to see what stakes I have and if I have any duplicates or broken ones. A little disappointing, but many of you said it is a crap shot on what you get. Going to reach out to the seller to let them know. Looks like I'll need to bid on another set.

K&D made some good stuff, so I wouldn't ditch the set because of the brand of the stakes not matching the set.  Duplicates,  condition and particular function of the stakes are the overriding concern.

Wait a sec.  Isn't that a K&D Series 600 set?  If anything is out of place, it would be the Moseley stakes.  This site has a wealth of info on the K&D sets, including the particular stakes that were originally supplied.  https://kanddinverto.weebly.com/

Edited September 27, 2023 by gpraceman

[Neverenoughwatches]

13 minutes ago, nickelsilver said:

What are the stump "spigot" diameters on your Boley? Most I've seen have been 4mm, which is standard, but a friend had one where they were 5mm.

The Boley was just a frame that i bought cheap as one of small holes was blocked on the star and i can't clear it . But the last hole for the stumps on the Boley is 4mm . The hole that runs through the base is also 4mm

Edited September 27, 2023 by Neverenoughwatches

[garrettwp]

40 minutes ago, gpraceman said:

K&D made some good stuff, so I wouldn't ditch the set because of the brand of the stakes not matching the set.  Duplicates,  condition and particular function of the stakes are the overriding concern.

Wait a sec.  Isn't that a K&D Series 600 set?  If anything is out of place, it would be the Moseley stakes.  This site has a wealth of info on the K&D sets, including the particular stakes that were originally supplied.  https://kanddinverto.weebly.com/

I am not disqualifying K&D. I bought the set hoping it was a complete set or at least mostly complete. Because this was sold as a Moseley, I was expecting moseley stakes. In this case I have mostly K&D and some unmarked stakes. So in this case, the entire set appears to be mix and match of things. Some K&D stakes are stamped with the same number, but are different shapes.

Thanks for the site. I've came across that a week ago and will be using that to see what I have. Looks like the moseley staking tool is the outcast here. Just separated the stakes into groups. Will need to clean them up and start doing inventory of what I have and inspect the tips to see if they are broken.

What is the best way to clean them up? I was planning to clean them with fine steel wool with WD40, clean in an ultrasonic bath, polish and a coat of oil for protection.

[gpraceman]

13 minutes ago, garrettwp said:

I am not disqualifying K&D. I bought the set hoping it was a complete set or at least mostly complete. Because this was sold as a Moseley, I was expecting moseley stakes. In this case I have mostly K&D and some unmarked stakes. So in this case, the entire set appears to be mix and match of things. Some K&D stakes are stamped with the same number, but are different shapes.

Thanks for the site. I've came across that a week ago and will be using that to see what I have. Looks like the moseley staking tool is the outcast here. Just separated the stakes into groups. Will need to clean them up and start doing inventory of what I have and inspect the tips to see if they are broken.

What is the best way to clean them up? I was planning to clean them with fine steel wool with WD40, clean in an ultrasonic bath, polish and a coat of oil for protection.

From the looks of it, the set is a K&D Series 600 with some Moseley stakes thrown in.

As for cleanup, I'd try some Evaporust if there's any rust.   Steel wool, if needed.  Maybe run it through an ultrasonic cleaner with some degreaser (like Dawn dish soap) to remove any crud and old oil, dry thoroughly, and then a light coat of oil.   I use Ballistol on my tools.  It is eco friendly and skin safe.  Has a licorice smell to it, that some don't like, but I don't mind it.

 

Edited September 27, 2023 by gpraceman

[Stymied]

I have both a K&D INVERTO and a Marshall set....which is certainly the more complete of the two. Since I have that OCD side to me I like to be particularly picky about keeping my tools clean and dressed at all times. I share because I printed both a K&D as well as a Marshall inventory for my sets with eye towards organizing them along those lines. I was absolutely astounded by how what I actually had in my hot little hand miked-out and what the specs were for a given tool on the published sheet.  Anyone who will listen please swear the solemn oath I have taken and simply Never trust a part or tool specs unless you have personally miked the bit yourself. (I have parts that I take out packages that are nowhere Near what was printed on the package (the European bits are the worst) so I now buy only from trusted sources.) With a set of pins, calipers and a bench mike, my goal is to re-examine every swinging one of those tools and organize a spreadsheet as a substitute for the published listings I have for each of my sets. Recommend that every set owner do the same and stop the preoccupation with one brand versus another. IMVVHO 

Best Wishes. 

Edited September 29, 2023 by Stymied

[gpraceman]

On 9/21/2023 at 9:41 AM, garrettwp said:

I just saw this on ebay and picked it up. It looks fairly complete and in decent condition with some cleaning needed to get them looking great. Did I do well or make a mistake? The previous listing looks to have been available since beginning of August and after looking at previous sales, looks to be on the higher side. So when I saw the Moseley available, it looked fairly complete maybe with a piece or two broken and in decent shape.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/145314437968

Sorry, I was thinking that you bought the set that you provided photos for, which was for a K&D Series 600.  When I look at eBay listing you bought, it was for a Moseley set.  My mix up.  Hopefully, you can get things sorted out with it.

I'm out of town for the weekend, so of course my K&D 18R Deluxe set arrives Saturday.  I'm anxious to get my hands on it and see whether I got what I thought I was getting.  I'm going to start with the factory list of stakes and stumps and compare to what's in the set.  Hopefully, I don't find a bunch of missing stakes, duplicates, a mix of brands, or blocked tips.

[gpraceman]

Well, I received the K&D 18R Deluxe staking set that I got from eBay and I do have to say that I am rather disappointed, especially for what I paid for it.  My fears were realized (23 missing stakes from the original 100, 16 duplicated stakes, 3 damaged stakes, 12 stakes from another brand).  There's also other missing items from the set as well (and duplicates).  I may end up returning the set and try again later.

A word of warning for anyone trying to buy a staking set online.  Pester the sellers to give you a list of the stakes that are included.  Most don't provide that in the listing.  Many won't even want to provide that when you request it.  Maybe that's laziness, since there's are a lot of stakes to go through.  Without that it is more of a crap shoot as to what you will get.

[garrettwp]

Still cleaning up my set. But I have about 60% K&D stakes, 35% Moseley and 5% other brands. I have not inventoried of what I have as I am cleaning the oxidation, etc off and then coating them in Ballistol as recommended. I was going to polish them, but will leave them as is and polish the tips of those that need them. I am still trying to hunt down a complete set or at lease somewhat complete. But as others have stated, it is hit or miss on the sets and without knowing what you are getting exactly, it is hitting the lottery. I will be doing my best to analyze the photos, I did see a few sets in the last week that looked complete but missed out. As they say, there will always be something and just have to be patient. 

[rehajm]

...and I'm sure this is on here somewhere but I'll post anyways...very helpful to understand what you have and what you need...

I guess I was lucky as so far I've only had to buy one staking set. I'm awaiting my second Seitz jeweling kit however- ouch...

Staking Tools and How to Use Them 1910 - 163p BW - S.pdf

[gpraceman]

I had much better luck my 2nd time around.  This K&D 18-R Deluxe set is only missing 3 stakes from the factory original 100.  Well, I'd say 4 as one of the stakes was heavily modified.  Only 3 duplicate stakes.  It is more complete than the 1st set that I ended up returning and paid a bit less for it (though it was still painful on the wallet).  It is missing many of the screw knocking sub punches and one of the 321 set sub punches is missing and another is damaged.  It does have several extra stakes (mostly K&D).

The set cleaned up rather well.  I patched some holes in the top of the case, cleaned and lubricated all the metal parts.  The case did get some damage to the label as the seller used packaging tape to hold the small parts in place.  Removing that tape pulled up some of the lettering.  Several extra holes were drilled in the case insert, but not sure what went there, as those parts were not in the set.

I did manage to find a local set from a jewelry store up in the mountains.  I may end up grabbing that one as well (only seen photos so far).  It's the far better deal.  It's an older K&D 18 set.  It doesn't have any of the jeweling parts or functionality, but I have a Chinese Horia clone, so that's fine.

 

Advice #1:  Get a list of the stakes from the seller that are included in the set.  Compare that list to the factory original set of stakes.  Many sets I saw were missing many stakes, had many duplicates and included stakes from other brands.  So, a set may be far less complete than it seems from the photos.

Advice #2: Once you've purchased a set online, ask the seller to pack up the small parts separately.  Also pack up the stakes separately.  Some of the small parts are delicate, as well as the tips of some of the stakes.  You don't want pieces bouncing around inside of the set while transiting through the mail system.  When I opened up this set, several things spilled out.  There was also the tape issue mentioned earlier.

Advice #3: Find a local set, if you can.  Seeing the set in person is so much better to see what you are getting.  See if any jewelry stores have old watchmaker tools they want to get rid of.  Also try to find some local watchmakers.

Edited October 9, 2023 by gpraceman

[gpraceman]

On 9/21/2023 at 2:21 PM, gpraceman said:

Curious as to the purpose of the central threaded hole, other than to attract lint?  This is on a K&D Series 600 staking frame.  Most of the Series 600's that I have seen don't have this hole.

I finally figured out what the central threaded hole was for.  It is for use with the No. 330 accessory to clamp things down to the anvil.