3d printer useful for watch repairs

[Kevin]

Hi

First off happy new year.

Does any one else use a 3d printer for making odd tools and movement holders?

I have printed holders for several movements, two case back knives, multiple parts trays

and all manner of tool storage solutions. But the most useful has to be a watch back

wrench for a Seiko divers. I printed it with six square pins that fitted the back perfectly,

took the very tight back of with ease. I now don't use the metal 3 point wrench.

The case knives printed in PLA work very well if only lasting for a few uses but with no

risk of scratching the watch back.

My thinking is, would it be worth making the Gcode files available on this forum?

 

Kevin

[Chopin]

I'm curious and interested in the whole 3D printing stuff, also for watch parts and stuff.

First of all. Do both metallic and plastic components made with a 3D printer last for a short while or could some of them be used just as the "original" ?

Also, do you have to have a good expensive printer to actually make solid quality parts ?

[clockboy]

I first see a demonstration of a 3D printer approx. 5 Year’s ago. The machine made a small gear perfectly.In my opinion this will be how spare parts will be supplied. Just download the drawing and make it yourself. 

[oldhippy]

I don’t understand 3d printers at all.

[Chopin]

In a few years it will be easy and cheap to replicate watch parts that are hard to find or very expensive.

You can either make them into a 3D software on the computer or use a 3D laser to scan a part that is already available and then make some copies of it.

The plastic parts such as those used on quartz watches are probably easy to make and similar in "strength" to the original ones but I wonder how hard or easy it is to make the metallic ones and how good are they in comparison to the real ones.

Edited December 29, 2017 by Chopin

[rogart63]

Small stuff like gears are almost impossible to make in a 3D printer. They are so small and the finish isn't good enough. Maybe there are better printers out there? But they cost much more. In the future maybe? 

[jdm]

38 minutes ago, rogart63 said:

Small stuff like gears are almost impossible to make in a 3D printer. They are so small and the finish isn't good enough. Maybe there are better printers out there? But they cost much more. In the future maybe? 

Correct. I know someone that prints and he showed me the process. He uses the cheapest model on the market and even when making large parts there are a lot of limitations as in the maximum overhang step, because shear resistance is good only when perpendicular to the printing plane. Precision and micro machines are very expensive. On top of all that one needs to be handy with 3D CAD and PCs in general. 

[Tmuir]

I own a 3D printer.

It is very useful and I've made new swiper arms for my 1970s pinball machine with it, movement holders and some tools would very much be possible, but a home grade 3D printer would not be up to making watch parts.

Commercial 3D printers very much could make watch parts.

Rocket Labs in New Zealand is making rocket parts with 3D printers.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-space-rocketlab-launch/new-zealand-launches-into-space-race-with-3d-printed-rocket-idUSKBN18L0I3

Think of a home 3D printer a bit like a cake icing pipe decorator.

Essentially all it does is melt plastic and extrude it at a set rate whilst stepper motors move it very accurately laying the melted plastic layer upon layer ontop of itself to build up a parts.

Commercial ones can use laser sintering to fuse metal together to make the parts and can make them from cast iron powder, silver, gold, bronze, brass, platinum, titanium, ceramic etc  and can make very strong long lasting parts.

Shapeways

https://www.shapeways.com/

Lets you upload your 3D models to it, pick what you want it to be made from and it will give you the price, you pay and a couple of weeks later it turns up in the post. I've never used Shapeways but they can print pretty amazing things for you and possibly they could print some watch parts if you could design the 3D model.

[ro63rto]

There are pretty impressive printers out there.

This is a really good one

 

 https://youtu.be/g0AxfGEDdN0

 

 

 upgrade of this one

 

 

 

 

[M.Frias]

There are pretty impressive printers out there.
This is a really good one
 
 https://youtu.be/g0AxfGEDdN0
 
 
 upgrade of this one
 

 
 
 

Not all 3d printers work the same way, the conventional or home 3d printer basically melts the pla or abs and make layers of the model you want to print, the results are good for some uses but you have limited control on the details especially with small prints. The video you've posted is a 3d printer but uses stereolithography wich is a totally different method, this method uses liquid resine and starts to lightcure the resine and the model takes shape from there.
What I'm trying to say is that the stereolithography 3d printers are super expensive compared to the conventional layer melting pla/abs ones.

Enviado desde mi Moto G (4) mediante Tapatalk

[clockboy]

The 3D printer I was shown approx. 5 years ago was high end industrial quality & it was still being developed. What I see that had been produced was high quality small parts. 

[StuartBaker104]

23 hours ago, rogart63 said:

Small stuff like gears are almost impossible to make in a 3D printer. They are so small and the finish isn't good enough. Maybe there are better printers out there? But they cost much more. In the future maybe? 

If it was easy, someone would be doing it!

There are a number of limitations which constrain from making watch parts this way today. These may be overcome in the future, but most of the research is either focussed on making parts which cannot be made any other way, are very expensive if made in other ways or for prototypes / visual models.

If we are talking about metal parts then the constraints are essentially the availability of powders in the right materials, the surface finish and accuracies, the mechanical properties and of course the cost / time involved.  For those not familiar, most 3D metal printing is done by depositing many thin layers of powdered metal and then fusing each layer using a laser.  It’s slow and uses a lot of electrical energy.

If you want a substitue for intricate castings in aerospace grade titanium, or want to add an internal honeycomb or passageways rather than in solid form, then 3D printing is great. There are even printing systems which will machine unprintable features between layers of printing.  These parts cost hundreds or thousands of pounds, but are really exploiting the manufacturing technology to make parts which might otherwise be impossible.

Most 3D printed parts for engineering applications are subsequently machined to achieve the necessary surface finishes and tolerances. Also they typically have mechanical properties similar to a casting - low ductility / tensile strength. Watch parts are mostly made of hot rolled plate or drawn bar which has been heat treated before machining.

For tooling, 3D printing can be a great option, but I think it will be a very long time before we see replacement parts made this way.

[Kevin]

The home printer I have cost me just a little over £200, and for me was a dipping the toe in the water job.

For what I use it for its fantastic,  I use it to make patterns for sand casting small lumps of traction engines.

My maximum print size is around 5"x5"x6" inch, for what I do its perfect. If I need a larger pattern I can print in a few sections and super glue them together. It saves me a fortune in pattern makers fee's.

For very small watch parts it simply does not have the resolution to do the job. What it is great for is printing small jigs for holding watch parts whilst polishing (found that out the weekend). Or making holders for watch movements.

Its single largest advantage is if I want a holder or what ever it may be at 3pm on a Sunday afternoon. I can draw the bit I want then set the printer going while I drink a cup of tea or simply fall asleep (again found that out the weekend).

I now also have so many parts trays that I dont know what to do with them. My wife has signs for the stable doors of her horses so she cant forget the horses names. Plus my motorcycles GPS system has a custom sunshade it didnt know it needed.

An on going project is a weight driven watch winder, a superb design that eliminates winding my automatic Seikos. All I have to do is wind up my watch winder!

Any way happy new year to yo all.

 

[StewartKerr]

These guys said that it is a too old model and it is not supported by them anymore. I found this website where are offered a bunch of quality printer models from trusted brands.

[KOwatch]

I think  CNC machining of watch parts is a lot more promising, there's a few people making hard-to-replace parts using these machines.

Maybe if you work at a rocket lab you've got access to something that can 3dprint a useful part, I haven't seen any 3d printers that can produce anything useful micromechanically, or that holds up to a visual scrutiny like decorative parts require. 

Holders and jigs, absolutely. Case prototypes, or even novelty cases for old movements. I've seen a youtube video where the host was making dial prototypes, the surface was pretty messy looking though. There's some strap adapter 3d models on thingiverse, I think those might be useful, but again the surface needed refinishing to look good, or you could just appreciate the texture for what it is, depending on the application.

Always something new out there though, keep experimenting!

[JohnR725]

On 12/29/2017 at 3:32 AM, Chopin said:

In a few years it will be easy and cheap to replicate watch parts that are hard to find or very expensive

Amusingly this discussion was started in 2017 and a few years would be now perhaps? Other than stereolithography the resin-based printers basically they're capable of much higher resolution but were not quite there yet. Sad I was really looking forward to making all my replacement parts with my 3-D printer.

13 hours ago, KOwatch said:

I think  CNC machining of watch parts is a lot more promising

For those people open to what CNC can do it is very promising. The cost of CNC controllers stepping motors fallout from 3-D printers basically have come down considerably. Although it's amazing how much resistance conventional watch repair people have to the thought of CNC.

One of my friends has made some really nice clocks and has started on a watch project basically using CNC for everything. All of his own design if you understand what you're doing and understand the technology the results are phenomenal.

[jdm]

15 hours ago, KOwatch said:

I think  CNC machining of watch parts is a lot more promising, there's a few people making hard-to-replace parts using these machines.

Maybe if you work at a rocket lab you've access to something that can 3dprint a useful part, I haven't seen any 3d printers that can produce anything useful micromechanically, or that holds up to a visual scrutiny like decorative parts require.

Well the same almost rocket lab level applies to CNC equipment to make watch parts. Example, German semi-pro milling machine, linear guides, really crappy controller and software is about € 10K, that is before any tooling of course, so multiply by two.

Moving up, American small milling machine, industry leader can probably do mov,,tparts, 50K thay is before the rotary table, the most basix one costing 20K. What a pity one would never turn on the cooler fluid pump. 

CNC lathes are a bit less but complete turning centers a lot more. 

Swiss machines, the real deal, we are talking millions.

CNC for making watches is not the same as engring a mailbox plate.

2 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

Amusingly this discussion was started in 2017 and a few years would be now perhaps?

You why it resurrected, a spammer tried to place an advertising link above but was quickly edited out by mods, LoL

Quote

Although it's amazing how much resistance conventional watch repair people have to the thought of CNC.

It`s a reasonable posture, beside emphasizing the value of manual skilled work is well justified when you look at the cost of apt equipment as mentioned above. Who would spend, say 30K to make a wheel per month, when has always done the same with one tenth or fifth of that. 

[Marc]

 

1 hour ago, jdm said:

Well the same almost rocket lab level applies to CNC equipment to make watch parts. Example, German semi-pro milling machine, linear guides, really crappy controller and software is about € 10K, that is before any tooling of course, so multiply by two.

Moving up, American small milling machine, industry leader can probably do mov,,tparts, 50K thay is before the rotary table, the most basix one costing 20K. What a pity one would never turn on the cooler fluid pump. 

Christian AKA "The Watch Guy" seems to be quite enjoying himself with his CNC set-up and managing to get watch parts out of it for under £800 including shipping.

https://watchguy.co.uk/a-new-era/#more-13796

https://watchguy.co.uk/cnc-machine-saves-a-prince/

I guess it depends on what parts you want to make. It seems that wheels are proving a bit more challenging but not impossible.

https://watchguy.co.uk/cnc-update/

https://watchguy.co.uk/one-step-closer/

[jdm]

16 minutes ago, Marc said:

Christian AKA "The Watch Guy" seems to be quite enjoying himself with his CNC set-up and managing to get watch parts out of it for under £800 including shipping

That is a good link, thank you. But..

The fourth axis motor that came with the milling machine wasn’t very accurate, 

Well, one needs accuracy, he managed to address the issue, but what if one needs results out of the box?

A good indicator how small you can machine is making a small pinion. The one in the photo measures 2.5mm across, and has 18 teeth, so that’s not bad for a start.

Not bad for a desk clock I would say. And, teeth have no profile, just like in the 14th century. He would had to make (ideally grind)  a cutter first, which is an art in itself, then harden it. Or resort to the one or two places in Switzerland where they make custom cutters, which you can bet, are different for most of the gears the one will have to cut. Nothing impossible but you see the goal posts moving further away quickly.

The main problem was getting a perfectly round base for the pinion, and I achieved that by milling down the round stock in the fourth axis itself, so basically using it as a lathe. The pinion end and the shaft that you can see where milled down (that’s why they aren’t that smooth), and they would get finished off in the lathe if this was a real-world part.

That is what I was saying before. One machine is not enough, and for as much tooling you have, you will need some more. I rest my case, for as much tinkering there can be with a 3D printer -  which I am told it may cost as little as $200, you can get good results right away, but CNC machining watch parts is another story.

I know that our nickelsilver has mentioned making parts in CNC, I will be very interested to learn how effort went into thatt, if he wants to fill the details.

 

[JohnR725]

1 hour ago, jdm said:

That is what I was saying before. One machine is not enough, and for as much tooling you have, you will need some more. I rest my case, for as much tinkering there can be with a 3D printer -  which I am told it may cost as little as $200, you can get good results right away, but CNC machining watch parts is another story.

I suppose it depends upon what the one machine is doesn't it? What if the individual who made the machine is really clever one DIY machine is that possible?

From time to time there are rumors that $100 3-D printers have appeared.  The problem where having of 3-D printers versus CNC machining metal is a problem of opposites. Ideally for 3-D printers the print head should be as light as possible especially if you're going for speed. Whereas machines for machining metal the bigger and the heavier the better.

 

[jdm]

1 hour ago, JohnR725 said:

Whereas machines for machining metal the bigger and the heavier the better.

That is the common thinking but using logic for making tiny parts size and weight should not matter much. Precision, repeatibily and flexibitly are more important. I saw a machine in action once at a trade fair, making a main plate, it was maybe 1m x 1m and 1.5m tall. Forgot the brand but it was Swiss or German, and cost a fortune. The Chinese were buying it without any problem.

Edited August 22, 2020 by jdm

[JohnR725]

1 hour ago, jdm said:

1m x 1m and 1.5m tall

Actually that's exactly the point I was trying to make. If you look at the catalogs for watchmaker's lathe is for instance the old days before either of us existed they would have access reads like the ability to cut gears so they had the cross slide with the attachment for the gear cutting spindle all mounted on the watchmaker's life. The problem with stuff like that is it isn't really very stable. Then yes I've had experience with that it's not a good way to do things but it's what was designed for watchmakers to do thing it's not stable.

I bet you the size of the machine that you talk about probably didn't have a handle for picking up and carrying around the shop it's probably still pretty darn heavy inside.

 

[nickelsilver]

I have a milling attachment for my lathe, but when I make gears I do it on a milling machine that weighs probably 50x more than my lathe. I also have a CNC milling machine. It weighs maybe 60kg (very light), shop built with a lot of old Swiss machine parts but the real guts are ultra precise Rolvis screws and nuts, running on cross roller bearing axis. Zero backlash and +- 1 or 2 micron positioning. I have to manually change tools, but it's made multiple examples of multiple prototypes over the years with no fuss, other than the usual hair pulling. Running the distinctly hobbiest Mach 3 and a 150 buck cam program.

I know this thread was necroed by a spammer and all, but to make parts isn't so complicated, maybe time consuming. With a jig borer and a lathe pretty much any part can be made- if time isn'tan issue. CNC makes it faster and easier. LIGA technology has been around for over 20 years to print low profile parts in metal (it's not the panacea though) but this is something involving clean rooms and $$$ tech investment.

3D for actual metal watch parts as replacements for their formers is still a ways off. 5, 10 years from now?- maybe. Probably not at the level of the original parts though.