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I don't think you necessarily need an ultrasonic tank, I've gotten great results (a lot lot better than just hand cleaning alone) with a simple 1 hour soak in horolene in a warm place (in a sealed kilner jar and cheap parts baskets) then obviously you need some kind of rinse solution and a thorough rinse and then to go over everything lightly, mostly with clean rodico but you still need to keep an eye out for stubborn dirt spots and triple check those jewels. 

Edited by Ishima
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18 minutes ago, Ishima said:

I don't think you necessarily need an ultrasonic tank, I've gotten great results (a lot lot better than just hand cleaning alone) with a simple 1 hour soak in horolene in a warm place (in a sealed kilner jar and cheap parts baskets) then obviously you need some kind of rinse solution and a thorough rinse and then to go over everything lightly, mostly with clean rodico but you still need to keep an eye out for stubborn dirt spots and triple check those jewels. 

 

37 minutes ago, jguitron said:

Hello,

I’m chipping in not as a seasoned watchmaker but as one on my way towards getting there, accumulating experiences and slowly building up a decent shop.

Like anything else, every step of the way can done differently and how much funds and effort you put into is is what you get in results.

There are many US machines of various qualities from $30 to $5000 and more. The cleaning liquids are also important. I’ve heard more negatives han positives about lighting fluid leaving a coat behind.

So, yes, an US cleaner will improve on your hand washing process but it will remain inferior to the standard automatic washing machines what incorporate US features to the process.

I’m a believer in pre-cleaning with the movement assembled then reassembling, full wash, peg’ing and reassemble.

Keep it going!!!!

Cheers!



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I did see an oily residue after using lighter fluid and that's why I would like to move onto something much more cleaner.

Wanted one of those Elma cleaners but for a hobbyist paying that amount of cash is not an option :))

Patience is not a problem with me using a peg but I'm a massive OCD freak and knowing the movement is not squeaky clean just drives me mad.

Saw some fluids from Horotec and Bergeon. Quite expensive but I guess they are worth the money.

Thanks for your reply btw. Great support.

 

Andrei

 

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However you want to progress is fine, but just know I came from your exact scenario I only had isopropanol and lighter fluid and pegweood before and I assumed thats about the best you could expect of any cleaning fluid alone without machinery, horolene is a much more active solution, it does more than you might think, i was pleasently surprised, any oil residue that is left is chemically broken down and lifts straight off most of the time, makes the hand cleaning a walk in the park, but it also does make everything significantly cleaner than i could have made it no matter how much I hand cleaned it. 

I actually have an ultrasonic cleaner and I haven't tried to combine the two, I cant be sure its safe, the thing is usually steaming hot for one thing.

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1 hour ago, AndreiMartin said:

 

I did see an oily residue after using lighter fluid and that's why I would like to move onto something much more cleaner.

Do not use lighter fluid. Get refined ether petrol (Benzine). There is a recent thread in this forum about it. Then rinse with IPA. Neither one of these leaves any residue.

In my opinion an US machine is not really necessary, for cleaning mov.ts also because it should not be used with the flammable fluids above. I had a cheap Chinese one and it broke after a year, it can be useful in the household but I'm not in a hurry to replace it.

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1 hour ago, Ishima said:

i was pleasently surprised, any oil residue that is left is chemically broken down and lifts straight off most of the time, makes the hand cleaning a walk in the park, but it also does make everything significantly cleaner than i could have made it no matter how much I hand cleaned it. 

3

Good to know about the Horolene. Thanks.

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I have this cheap Chinese ultrasonic cleaner which is doing a pretty good job for me. Remember, as long as you don't have many watches as a beginner in my opinion with this cheap and small cleaner, you will save money and more so space, something that many tend to forget about, but take in consideration that it has a small container if it makes a difference for you. Otherwise, when you'll get so much work/repair then get a better one.

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16 minutes ago, Ishima said:

I once tried to get Benzine but it's totally restricted in the UK, I think only research labs can get it, apparently because its somewhat carcinogenic. 

I think you have missed the thread referenced above:

Once again, key points:

Benzine (petroleoum ether, and many other names) is NOT benzene and is NOT toxic, at least not more than petrol fuel.
It can be purchased anywhere. UK example: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Petroleum-Ether-80-C-100-C-500ml-Petroleum-Spirit-Shipped-Same-Day/142061406816

 

 

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I am using a cheap US cleaner, works fine with Elma 1:9, just repeat the process if the first round of cleaning is not sufficient. Just don't put the pallet fork in for cleaning, the jewel might drop off.

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14 hours ago, Ishima said:

However you want to progress is fine, but just know I came from your exact scenario I only had isopropanol and lighter fluid and pegweood before and I assumed thats about the best you could expect of any cleaning fluid alone without machinery, horolene is a much more active solution, it does more than you might think, i was pleasently surprised, any oil residue that is left is chemically broken down and lifts straight off most of the time, makes the hand cleaning a walk in the park, but it also does make everything significantly cleaner than i could have made it no matter how much I hand cleaned it. 

I actually have an ultrasonic cleaner and I haven't tried to combine the two, I cant be sure its safe, the thing is usually steaming hot for one thing.

Was looking for some Horolene a few moments ago. Do you put 1 part Horolene solution and then X amount of water?

If this works as you say I am tempted on buying some. Also, do you rinse it with other solutions after or not?

 

Thank you,


Andrei

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12 hours ago, PJA said:

I have this cheap Chinese ultrasonic cleaner which is doing a pretty good job for me. Remember, as long as you don't have many watches as a beginner in my opinion with this cheap and small cleaner, you will save money and more so space, something that many tend to forget about, but take in consideration that it has a small container if it makes a difference for you. Otherwise, when you'll get so much work/repair then get a better one.

To be honest I have a generous amount of watches and movements, that's why I was looking into a cleaner. Not because it's faster but because I felt that an US machine will do the job much better than a manual process. :(

I don't mind dimensions. Will only do a movement at a time. The only thing that I want is to put all of the movement parts in it (in their individual containers) and rinse them afterwards, but just want them as squeaky clean as possible.

 

Andrei.

Edited by AndreiMartin
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I have an ultrasonic cleaner and have used the L&R solution which works well.  Its a heated tank of moderate size.  I've also used various other solvents on non horology cleaning jobs.   Do exercise some care using heated solvents!   One thing that I find a pita with ultrasonic cleaners is the size of the tank demands a lot of fluid that its not easily sealed or drained.  Fill it up with expensive solution and watch it evaporate, or quickly look like black juice form hell. Instead, I fill the tank with water, and then suspend the items in a container with the solvent and parts in the container.  The contain is either a plastic bag or glass jar, either of which the ultrasonic waves travel through.   A favorite is glass preserving jaws as they are easily sealed so the solvent doesn't evaporate.  Because you are using so much less solvent, the Scottsman in me has less issue throwing it away when it looks dirty.

I've often wondered about the use of ultrasonic machines in horology.  I know its widespread and many clock repairmen seek out large ultrasonic machines that will fit an entire movement.  The concern i have is that the ultrasonic action vibrates the parts against each and creating wear.  You should never for example ultrasonically clean a roller element bearing, the micro collisions between ball and race can brinell the surfaces. 

It may be simply that the ultrasonic cleaning causes so little wear, that its just not considered material vs quickly and efficiently getting the job done.....but they will wear whatever parts you put in them by rubbing and colliding (albeit on a small scale) them against each other and the container they are it.  I don't know if watch guys think of this or think its a factor, but I'm coming to this from a different mechanical trajectory where the merits and limitations of cleaning this way would be considered (ie cleaning bearings)

imo the L&R wash machine with the L&R solution is tough to beat to for watches.  That solution just works so darn well!

Edited by measuretwice
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On 12/24/2017 at 6:28 PM, Ishima said:

I once tried to get Benzine but it's totally restricted in the UK, I think only research labs can get it, apparently because its somewhat carcinogenic. 

That's what I kept thinking.....thanks JDM for the explanation.

Anyone know if Benzene called that in North America?  Where would you buy it?  I can't recall every seeing it.

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47 minutes ago, measuretwice said:

That's what I kept thinking.....thanks JDM for the explanation.

Anyone know if Benzene called that in North America?  Where would you buy it?  I can't recall every seeing it.

Once again:

You want Petroleum ether (BENZINE), NOT BENZENE.

NOTE the spelling with an 'I'

Synonyms and CAS Numbers: naphtha 8002-05-9, VM&P naphtha 8032-32-4, rubber solvent 8030-30-6, Stoddard solvent 8052-41-3, petroleum thinner 64742-89-3. Other synonyms: Ligroin, mineral spirits, white spirits, safety solvent, SBP spirits, painter’s naphtha.

https://www.acs.org/content/dam/acsorg/about/governance/committees/chemicalsafety/safetypractices/clip-petroleum-ether.pdf

 

 

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I use a £40 ultrasonic tank with built in heater. The cleaner I use is a water-based Greiber solution, and I rinse in pure ethanol. I use jars of solution which sit in a water bath in the ultra sonic tank.

I also use oil-based solutions in older National and Brenray machines. They work well, but you can never get rid of the very slight oil residue from previous cleans, and this can lead to spreading when you oil a newly cleaned movement. 

I always peg out first with peg wood dipped in naphtha. 

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I was recently researching for servicing of some vintage cigarette lighters and there appears to be several quality levels for the liquid lighter fuels. The pureness quality can affect the lighters valves and burning residues.

For hand cleaning my watches, I had used several brands from my local stores which were quite cheap but these seemed to leave a very slight residue, which I removed by final rinse in IPA.  I then sourced some premium branded ones such as 'Ronsonol' and found they left  no residues.  The premium brands can be hard to source as not many people use them nowadays, and they are more expensive (150-200%) than the cheaper fluids.

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I've been using an ultrasonic with Elma 1:9 fluid and here in Singapore benzine/naphtha is used as a rinse (following the advise of the only watchmaker supply shop in the country). The U/S is used only for the first stage, not for rinses. If the final rinse is not super clean, you'll get residue when it dries. Ethanol IPA works for a rinse, but will ruin shellac (you can guess how I know). You'd have to take out the pallets and balance before using it, which is very clumsy.

The biggest change I noticed when switching to ammoniated Elma 1:9 is that everything comes out beautifully shiny. All polished bits, especially brass, look like new.

I've finally bought a proper cleaning machine on ebay (in transit now), so I wonder if I'll still use the ultrasonic in the future.

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6 hours ago, teegee said:

I've finally bought a proper cleaning machine on ebay (in transit now), so I wonder if I'll still use the ultrasonic in the future.

These old style machines (now mainly build in India) do nothing but heat up the fluid, shake and move parts from a jar to another. Seem to me that is something easily done by hand, especially for the hobbyist making occasional use of them.

If you look at the modern, expensive machines of today, all incorporate U/S.

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Thanks for this thread, learnt a lot. The Shellite (Naphtha, I believe, downunder) I have been using leaves a residual whitish stain on brass. I was able to remove it by using distilled water, but looks as though IPA will do the trick. 

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On 9/19/2017 at 5:09 PM, Tmuir said:

I'm in Perth, so the other side of the continent.

I'm yet to get hold of a traditional watch cleaning machine so at the moment just use an ultrasonic cleaner with the fluids, but we use the same fluids in school in a machine like yours.

I can't comment on your specific machine, I will leave that to your own judgement on how safe you feel it is to use it.

The fluid we make for cleaning watches is also identical to the branded cleaning products and is a non water based cleaner.

For clocks I use a water based cleaner, but not for watches.

If you go look up the SDS for L&R cleaning fluids you will see for both their cleaning and rinsing solutions they contain around 20% shellite. (With the rinsing solution basically being 80% turps 20% Shellite)

The only reason I use 100% shellite for my final rinse is it evaporates much faster than the 80% turps 20% shellite mix.

But I am very careful to not to have the heater on and I only use small amounts in a jar in a bath of water that I change for fresh water once it heats up to about 35C with the ultrasonics.

You can probably get away just using the 80% turps, 20% shellite for the first and final rinse as your machine will spin off most of the fluid, something I can't do with an ultrasonic machine, which is a less volatile solution to just straight Shellite.

What do you think about a final ultrasonic rinse in a jar with just Isopropyl alcohol  

1. L & R Cleaning solution.

2. 80% turps 20% shellite mix and

3. Final rinse of Isopropyl (Quicker drying than 100% Shellite (I have found concentrated Shellite can sometimes leave a white residue ). 

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32 minutes ago, Blubarb said:

What do you think about a final ultrasonic rinse in a jar with just Isopropyl alcohol  

1. L & R Cleaning solution.
2. 80% turps 20% shellite mix and
3. Final rinse of Isopropyl (Quicker drying than 100% Shellite (I have found concentrated Shellite can sometimes leave a white residue ). 

IPA is good for rinsing and even regular washing. IMO step 1 is not needed in most cases, but if if you're working on a rusty piece, use a specifi product instead.

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4 minutes ago, jdm said:

IPA is good for rinsing and even regular washing. IMO step 1 is not needed in most cases, but if if you're working on a rusty piece, use a specifi product instead.

That's interesting, jdm. So in most cases I can get away with a Turps and Shellite mix as a clean? 

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