Quartz second hand stutter after installing battery

[Chopin]

I have a Seiko with a quartz 8229 movement. It was working fine but I had to strip it all down (not the movement) to clean it and perform some TLC on the case, replace the glass, etc.

Now that I have everything finished I placed the battery back into the movement and the seconds hand stutters in place. Am I missing something ?

The battery is at around 70% but after research it seems that the movement should use a different one.

What is baffling is the fact that, as I mentioned earlier, the watch used to run just fine with the very same battery.

I'm looking at the 4 gears in the movement and the one that is powered by magnetic field or whatever it's called (the closest one to the coil) turns but apparently doesn't turn enough to turn the 2nd gear which, I think, spins the seconds hand, or at least puts in motion all the other gears.

[ecodec]

I had a Seiko some time ago that had a similar problem. I put it carefully over the de-magnetiser (not too close) and ran the stepper motor for a few seconds. This cured the problem but I never found out what the problem was. Probably a tiny bit of dirt in the gear train ?  Maybe it really needed a strip and clean etc but it is still going fine for some 2 years now. 

[Chopin]

I did the demagnetizer thing and nothing. I partially stripped it apart and lubricated the top side of the gears and still nothing.

[jdm]

Get a new, correct battery before even worrying.

[Chopin]

Ordered some but will take a while until they arrive. How come it used to work fine before, though ?

[Latvas]

I did the demagnetizer thing and nothing. I partially stripped it apart and lubricated the top side of the gears and still nothing.

Try a cleaning or a line release treatment


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[ro63rto]

Probably old oil.
When power ran through, it kept the oil more or less liquid but once stopped, the oil dried and blocked it?

[Chopin]

Nope. Cleaned it. Lubricated it, as I said. It only started to stutter when I put the battery back on after I was done with the case and everything.

What is a line release treatment ?

[canthus]

Agree probably gunked up a bit.  Just had Rotary with an ETA556.115 quartz movement which would not run even after normal circuit checks etc and with a new fully charged battery.  As this is an early movement , electronic parts (electronics and coil are integral to circuit board) are not available and a replacement alternative movement is quite expensive (for value of watch), I decided to strip it, check mechanicals, clean, lube and re-assemble to see what happens. 

It now runs perfectly !!!!  Interestingly this movement has no plastic parts, all good old fashioned metal throughout.

[Latvas]

Nope. Cleaned it. Lubricated it, as I said. It only started to stutter when I put the battery back on after I was done with the case and everything.
What is a line release treatment ?

Its a little device who makes the wheels in the watch turn very fast and making all the gunk fall off, its on ebay and very cheap


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[ro63rto]

Nope. Cleaned it. Lubricated it, as I said. It only started to stutter when I put the battery back on after I was done with the case and everything.
What is a line release treatment ?

Makes the hands spin like mad to release it from the grip of dried up oil.

[Ishima]

Wait for the battery, most watches will operate fine between ~1.3-1.5v  at and below 1.3 will be a watches 'lower working limit' sounds like you're probably around that limit, coupled with the fact you're using the wrong battery then interrupting the process (be that the electrical process or the mechanical) is the straw that breaks the camels back and it won't start up again. Not surprising.

Edited November 21, 2017 by Ishima

[Chopin]

As I said I already did the demagnetizer thing which is the same as that gizmo that some of you folks talk about.

@Ishima both batteries seem to be 1,55v apparently. I'm really having a hard time believing that it's the battery since it worked before, but I will wait for the batteries as I don't have any other option for now.

Here's what I did when I got the watch: removed movement and set it aside (I removed the battery from it as well), started doing various maintenance on the watch (bezel, glass, bracelet, etc.) > put the movement back in, installed the battery and noticed that it no longer functions. Upon closer inspection I noticed that the seconds hand stutters in place. Stripped it down (not the dial side), checked around, cleaned up, relubricated some parts, put back together,  same issue.

[rogart63]

20 minutes ago, Chopin said:

As I said I already did the demagnetizer thing which is the same as that gizmo that some of you folks talk about.

@Ishima both batteries seem to be 1,55v apparently. I'm really having a hard time believing that it's the battery since it worked before, but I will wait for the batteries as I don't have any other option for now.

Here's what I did when I got the watch: removed movement and set it aside (I removed the battery from it as well), started doing various maintenance on the watch (bezel, glass, bracelet, etc.) > put the movement back in, installed the battery and noticed that it no longer functions. Upon closer inspection I noticed that the seconds hand stutters in place. Stripped it down (not the dial side), checked around, cleaned up, relubricated some parts, put back together,  same issue.

Probably need to go deeper in. The rotor could have found some magnetic particles and making it stuck. It's a good thing it stutters as it probably just need a good clean. 

[Chopin]

I might try and strip it apart completely... I just don't feel like handling all those small thin springs and stuff but I don't know if this movement has any.

Would be nice if I had a 8229 walkthrough...

[JohnR725]

10 hours ago, Chopin said:

Nope. Cleaned it. Lubricated it, as I said. It only started to stutter when I put the battery back on after I was done with the case and everything.

Quartz watches like this have similar characteristics to mechanical watches. Specifically they have gears that rotate. Unlike mechanical watches Quarts watches have way less power. This means the gear trains have to be very clean ideally with the proper lubrication should be used and they really do need to be cleaned like a mechanical watch from time to time. Then when the movements out of the case you have to be very careful to keep it away from everything one little speck of dust in the wrong place  and the watch will stop. Then the rotor with its really strong magnetic field likes to attract steel particles equally as bad

They actually make a device to generate a magnetic field the spin the rotor this is really a temporary fix. Just as removing the balance wheel and pallet fork from a mechanical watch and letting the gear train spin is not a substitute for cleaning and proper lubrication. You do have to be careful with the demagnetizer because it is designed to demagnetized things and if you try really really hard you can demagnetized a rotor.

Then parts list attached plus service guide.

8222A,8223A,8229A.pdf

8229A.pdf

[Chopin]

Thank you @JohnR725 the first PDF is very useful! Will provide feedback today or tomorrow after I service it.

[Ishima]

Are you saying that your battery tester is showing them at 1.55v? or it has 1.55v inscribed on it? You said the power was at about 70% right? the batteries are made at 1.55v but when the power drops its the voltage that you're measuring, the voltage that drops. 

[Chopin]

I have one of those testers that has red yellow and green. It showed the battery between yellow and green so I guess I made the wrong assumption. You learn something new everyday.

I have basically serviced the movement now and the problem has been fixed. I placed back the old battery and the seconds hand started to rotate twice rather than once which is what it does when battery is low.

I installed a fresh different battery and the movement works fine but that battery doesn't sit right inside as it's thinner so now I will just wait for the proper batteries to arrive.

Thanks everyone! Maybe the old battery drained while in storage, somehow ?

[canthus]

8 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

Quartz watches like this have similar characteristics to mechanical watches. Specifically they have gears that rotate. Unlike mechanical watches Quarts watches have way less power. This means the gear trains have to be very clean ideally with the proper lubrication should be used and they really do need to be cleaned like a mechanical watch from time to time. Then when the movements out of the case you have to be very careful to keep it away from everything one little speck of dust in the wrong place  and the watch will stop. Then the rotor with its really strong magnetic field likes to attract steel particles equally as bad

They actually make a device to generate a magnetic field the spin the rotor this is really a temporary fix. Just as removing the balance wheel and pallet fork from a mechanical watch and letting the gear train spin is not a substitute for cleaning and proper lubrication. You do have to be careful with the demagnetizer because it is designed to demagnetized things and if you try really really hard you can demagnetized a rotor.

Then parts list attached plus service guide.

8222A,8223A,8229A.pdf

8229A.pdf

Agree with comments re the rotor gathering magnetic particles.  What I do is, once its removed I clean it as best I can with rodico to remove as many bits of magnetic and other debris, then again with some new clean lighter fuel, and when dry, again with clean rodico.

I then store it separately in a small re-sealable plastic pouch, having cleaned the inside of the pouch with lighter fuel and then run a magnet inside the pouch to ensure no debris is present that the rotor will attract.

It also helps to demag any steel parts (not coil or circuit board) before cleaning so that any debris will not remain adhered magnetically to the part.

Before assembling the movement with clean parts I pass a magnet around the immediate work area to pick-up and debris that could stick to the rotor. I also make sure my drivers and tweezers have been de-magnetised and are clean, especially when handling rotor.

Edited November 22, 2017 by canthus

[JohnR725]

5 hours ago, Chopin said:

Maybe the old battery drained while in storage, somehow ?

Batteries do not have an infinite life.To understand batteries particularly used in watches two separate tech sheets.

The discharge curve is interesting it's much higher than what we would normally find in a watch so obviously time is going to be much shorter. But it does give us an idea initially a brand-new fresh battery voltage is much higher. With the digital meter it's around 1.6 V this is the only way you can tell if you have a fresh battery without destructively testing it. So the discharge curve is destructive testing place a load see how long the battery lasts. Like for instance looking at the 364  data sheet you can see a nice flat discharge characteristic until it's reaching the end of life. So to measure the voltage anywhere from almost the beginning to the end you're getting a voltage but no clue as to what the life of that battery is.

Notice neither sheet gives you an exact life of when your batteries going to die. It does tell you though that storage affects the life and the temperature at which you are operating your battery-powered device affects things. So no matter what at some point in time the chemicals In the battery will no longer function and your battery is dead.

 

Battery- 357-303ZB.pdf

364z Battery.pdf

[PJA]

12 hours ago, Chopin said:

I have one of those testers that has red yellow and green. It showed the battery between yellow and green

1

For the future, I suggest you will get a bit better multimeter that will tell you the voltage of the battery, as Ishima has mentioned "most watches will operate fine between ~1.3-1.5v", and with the tester you have gotten, you never can tell whether the battery is 1.25v or 1.35v. Check this out on AE or in the U.S. you can even get the cheap type free at Harbor Freight Stores with coupons.

Here is one more inexpensive multimeter.

Edited November 23, 2017 by PJA