Pallet fork lubrication: pallets and pivots.

[oldhippy]

For pallet stones Moebius recomends 8000.

Here is a link to there chart.

https://blog.esslinger.com/moebius-oil-charts/

[Bauertime]

This is for 7750 pallet jewels. I assumed stones and jewels are the same, right?

[JohnR725]

the problem with lubrication charts is they do not necessarily have dates on them and changes can and do occur I have a link below where you can download the newest version of the chart at least I assume it's the newest version on the website.

peculiar wording on the chart but you're looking at this line "Escapement lift and escape wheel" 9415 or the oil version 941 and of course everyone's favorite 9010.

Of the 3 9415 is going to stay the best without surface treatment the other two really should have surface treatment. Although ideally depending upon which company you look at practically the entire watch is supposed to be surface treated.

 

 

http://www.moebius-lubricants.ch/en/products/oils

[HSL]

The epilame is a surface treatment which changes the surface tension. This ability makes the oils be more collected into one spot, you get the same result when you clean a pallet jewel good and polish it with for example a bit of leather on a stick. When you put a drop of any liquid in a highly polished surface the drop will be set in one place like a small ball. The epilame creates a similar function but also keeps the oil in place.
I personally only use epilame on spots where the angle of rotation is higher like on pallet fork jewel faces, the escape wheel, the cap jewels, pivots of the seconds wheel and reverser wheels. 
In these places the epilame helps to keep the oil in place instead of squirting away.
A secondary bonus is the epilame makes the oiling a bit easier but that isn’t the products main purpose.
I would only use Moebius 9010 on highspeed and low torque places like cap jewels, escape wheel and seconds wheel, it’s a very light oil.
On pallet jewel faces I personally only would use Moebius 941 or Moebius 9415. The Moebius 941 is an oil purpose made for pallet faces, with this I recommend the use of epilame to keep it in place.

Time flies and with it the development of lubricants. To get the latest data from for example Moebius one could visit their official site.

http://www.moebius-lubricants.ch/sites/default/themes/moebius/extras/pdf/tableEN.pdf

I personally don’t use Moebius 8000 anymore I gone fully synthetic all the way.
The Moebius 9415 is considered a thixotropic grease which will change properties when subjected to pressure.   At first it is firm grease and changes to liquid when hit by the escape club impulse face.
So if you don’t use epilame then the choise is Moebius 9415.

A bonus is if you know the history of the watch, the epilame surface treatment doesn’t wear away immediately but survives 2 or three services. So, you don’t need to use it at every service, in the best of worlds you treat a watch in every 12-15 years interval so in the long run those 150$ will go a long way.
This is a topic that pops up now and then and is covered in other threads and my final thought still is why one should lubricate a gem like a watch different in hobby use than if you would get it lubricated professionally? The price for a watch service often comes with a high price tag because it usually isn’t cheap to service a mechanical watch in the correct way. Doing it you self will save you the cost of manhours.

 

[Bauertime]

Thanks to everyone for the info. I will use the 9415 on the tip of exit stone. I've always just put 9010 on every 3rd or 4th tooth on the escape wheel.

[CaptCalvin]

Most manufactures when doing  lubrication checks want to observe a wedge of lubricant between teeth and impulse face at least 24 hours of running after application:

The appropriate size for this wedge is depending on who you ask, but most agree that there is to be a visible wedge. 

In my experience, without the use of epilame, even with 9415 this wedge is all but gone after a few hours of running, no matter how careful and precise my application, under 80x magnification with a stereo microscope, looking absolutely perfect initially. Topping it up 3, 4 times afterwards made no difference, still gone after few hours with each additional application. Now it still ran fine with ample amplitude but the work wouldn't have received a passing grade if someone was to scrutinize the lubrication due to lack of wedge, and manufacturers don't throw around these requirements for no reason. 

Then enter epilame. Difference is night and day. It made lubrication of the escapement much cleaner, neater, and forgiving, A dab of 9415 on 3 or 4 teeth of the escape wheel and I know the lubrication would remain presentable for any hypothetical inspector for the duration of the service cycle.

Want to do the job right(according to most manufactures and watchmaking schools anyway)? Get yourself some epilame.

[DouglasSkinner]

My instructor absolutely says we should lubricate the pallet pivots.  But he's coming from the world of vintage watches, especially old pocket watches.  Personally, per instruction I've received at AWCI and other places outside where I originally went to school, I don't lubricate the pivots on non-vintage movements such as modern ETA.  But there seems to be some merit to lubricating them with working with vintage.  Interested in some feedback as to whether we should? 

[JohnR725]

6 minutes ago, DouglasSkinner said:

My instructor absolutely says we should lubricate the pallet pivots.

Normally I think of the word instructor as teacher and associated with a school? So is the instructor associated with a school?

The lubrication a pivots On the pallet fork is a interesting subject. For instance Seiko on some other movements were the tech sheets been revised over a period of time will sometimes recommend yes and other times no. They just depends on which version of the tech sheet  you have as to whether you should or should not be.

Then in most modern teaching lubrication is considered undesirable. It has a dampening effect  and will cause a decrease in amplitude. Plus it's considered that the pivot is not rotating and does not require lubrication. So modern practice is you do not lubricate.

9 minutes ago, DouglasSkinner said:

But there seems to be some merit to lubricating them with working with vintage. 

Then I would be curious about why we should be lubricating vintage?

[Nucejoe]

                           

                                   OIL

 

[DouglasSkinner]

1 hour ago, JohnR725 said:

Then I would be curious about why we should be lubricating vintage?

Yes, I didn't say what merit there might be in it.  Part of the question has been answered by others to this thread in the case of non-jeweled pallet bushings.  When dealing with jeweled pallet bushings for vintage watches the rationale seems to be--short of repivoting--to be that lubrication is necessary to compensate for wear.  Honestly, I can't think of any other reason which is why I put my question.  I was seeking other reasons.  Perhaps there are none, which would be fine.  I'm just interested in hearing different points of view.

[Watchfixr]

On 12/12/2020 at 1:51 PM, DouglasSkinner said:

My instructor absolutely says we should lubricate the pallet pivots.  But he's coming from the world of vintage watches, especially old pocket watches.  Personally, per instruction I've received at AWCI and other places outside where I originally went to school, I don't lubricate the pivots on non-vintage movements such as modern ETA.  But there seems to be some merit to lubricating them with working with vintage.  Interested in some feedback as to whether we should? 

I have repaired more vintage watches than I care to remember. I never oil the pallet fork pivots. I check to see if the fork is free to move when the movement position is changed to allow the fork to move back and forth. It must be free to move without hesitation. The only exception is pallet forks with cap jewels. On those, I put a drop of 9010 on the corner of a piece of watch paper. Then, I drag the paper over the jewel to leave a slight film of oil on the jewel. The pivots do not rotate and there is very little pressure on the cap jewels. The oil film, if done properly, still allows for free movement of the fork.

[Nucejoe]

On 12/12/2020 at 11:00 PM, Nucejoe said:

                           

                                   OIL

 

You have metal on metal in no jewel movements, oil is a must.

[watchweasol]

Polished steel on brass is almost self lubricating but steel on steel is a different ball game and like Joe would add a little oil. 

[JohnR725]

1 hour ago, watchweasol said:

Polished steel on brass is almost self lubricating but steel on steel is a different ball game and like Joe would add a little oil. 

I was trying to remember where I had seen a chart with characteristics of steel and brass and lubrication. Then I remembered I've attached the PDF and snipped out something.

TS5500EN elgin oil.pdf

[Poljot]

On 12/12/2020 at 2:30 PM, Nucejoe said:

                           

                                   OIL

 

Do not OIL, just oil

[MechanicMike]

40 minutes ago, Poljot said:

Do not OIL, just oil

sorry. couldn't help myself....

[Nucejoe]

5 hours ago, MechanicMike said:

sorry. couldn't help myself....

it is funny, kinda refreshingly cute.

6 hours ago, Poljot said:

Do not OIL, just oil

Right little oil, didn't notice that small font at first. Funny.

Happy hoildays to you and all.

[jdrichard]

On 8/31/2014 at 5:45 AM, emso said:

Assembe movement and let it run 5 minst. Afterwards I do it using 9415 on every second teth tip of the escape wheel.

Only on the tip of it not on the top or bottom of the wheel

I check it under the microscope after 24hours of work if its not enough i do it once more

Enough is when the escape wheel tip and the pallet jewel meet you shoul see a droplet of oil between them which is aprox. 30% of the pallet jewel tip length(its dificult to explain)

And of course i use epilame as it makes this job a lot easier and the grease stays in place afterwards and does not travel along the surface which will leave the pallet jewels dry, at the begining i said let it run 5 mins, this will wear of the epilame coating and will leave the oil on that places.

I hope i made it a bit clearer for you now

br

emso

p.s: sent from my s****y phone so sorry for typing mistakes

This is what I do:)

[MechanicMike]

14 hours ago, Nucejoe said:

it is funny, kinda refreshingly cute.

Right little oil, didn't notice that small font at first. Funny.

Happy hoildays to you and all.

right back to ya guys. and all. it was a good one...

[DavidADav]

Greetings, 

I am restoring a Waltham Traveler (https://pocketwatchdatabase.com/search/result/waltham/24840482), the seven jewel version. This version has no jewels for any of the gear train settings, or the pallet fork, but is in excellent condition (shockingly so). I have oiled the gear train as I would any watch (HP1300 and 9010), but was wondering what I should do with the pallet fork settings. I used 9415 for the pallet fork jewels and escape wheel, and the amplitude is great, however I wonder if I should oil the setting for the pallet fork, as it is metal on metal? 

Also, in hindsight, any concerns regarding the use of HP1300 on a vintage watch, other than that I will need to make sure to service in ~3-5 years to ensure minimal metal on metal wear? I could have used D-5, but…didn’t.


Thank you, 

Dave 

[jdm]

38 minutes ago, DavidADav said:

 was wondering what I should do with the pallet fork settings. I used 9415 for the pallet fork jewels and escape wheel, and the amplitude is great, however I wonder if I should oil the setting for the pallet fork, as it is metal on metal?

Metal or stone makes no difference, have a read of our pinned topic.

 

38 minutes ago, DavidADav said:

Also, in hindsight, any concerns regarding the use of HP1300 on a vintage watch, other than that I will need to make sure to service in ~3-5 years to ensure minimal metal on metal wear? 

A synthetic oil is superior under all aspects, including on metal bearings and vintage pieces. 3-5 years is just an ultra conservative figure from the top of the industry, in reality most watches are serviced maybe 5 times less frequently if they're serviced at all. The good news is that unless they are worn continuously for all time, nothing bad happens. 

[DavidADav]

1 minute ago, jdm said:

Metal or stone makes no difference, have a read of our pinned topic.

 

A synthetic oil is superior under all aspects, including on metal bearings and vintage pieces. 3-5 years is just an ultra conservative figure from the top of the industry, in reality most watches are servicedaybe 5 times less frequently if they're serviced at all. The good news is that unless they are worn continuously for all time, nothing bad happens. 

Thank you for the quick reply! Yes, I’m going ultra conservative, but mainly because the watch is mine and I enjoy keeping it well serviced. 

Regarding the oiling, what you said makes sense (regarding oil types), but my question was not about the pallet jewels and escape wheel, it was around whether I should oil the pivots for the pallet fork as they are in a non-jeweled setting. I do understand (and see it discussed in the thread you linked to) that one should not oil the pallet fork arbor, and I never do this when the setting is jeweled…I did want to confirm this is still the case if the arbor settings are metal  

 

Thanks!

 

[DavidADav]

44 minutes ago, DavidADav said:

Thank you for the quick reply! Yes, I’m going ultra conservative, but mainly because the watch is mine and I enjoy keeping it well serviced. 

Regarding the oiling, what you said makes sense (regarding oil types), but my question was not about the pallet jewels and escape wheel, it was around whether I should oil the pivots for the pallet fork as they are in a non-jeweled setting. I do understand (and see it discussed in the thread you linked to) that one should not oil the pallet fork arbor, and I never do this when the setting is jeweled…I did want to confirm this is still the case if the arbor settings are metal  

 

Thanks!

 

My mistake, I did not review the full thread, and my questions are answered!

 

Thank you

[JohnR725]

55 minutes ago, DavidADav said:

My mistake, I did not review the full thread, and my questions are answered!

I assume you're still learning? If you're still learning watch repair an easy way to find out whether were telling the truth would be to try it out? In other words your Watch is running with no oil on the pallet fork pivots oil them see what happens?

Now to really see the effect you do have to have it on timing machine preferably not dial up or down you want a little more friction. It also depends on the oil. Plus it also depends on whether the oils synthetic or natural based because rumor has it natural based will go bad with time. Which means if you wanted to simulate that you put a really heavy oil on like D5 oil and see what happens.

Then it also depends on the discussion group what if we look at another group how do they feel about it? Maybe they feel differently? The other thing of amusement in this discussion is who are these people? I happen to know that two of the people in the discussion have gone to the school wostep in Neuchâtel Switzerland obviously with different instructors as they disagree on lubrication of the pallet fork pivots. You can't even have a famous Swiss school consistently teaching the same thing how weird is that?

https://mb.nawcc.org/threads/pallet-fork-pivots.183065/

 

 

[DavidADav]

15 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

I assume you're still learning? If you're still learning watch repair an easy way to find out whether were telling the truth would be to try it out? In other words your Watch is running with no oil on the pallet fork pivots oil them see what happens?

Now to really see the effect you do have to have it on timing machine preferably not dial up or down you want a little more friction. It also depends on the oil. Plus it also depends on whether the oils synthetic or natural based because rumor has it natural based will go bad with time. Which means if you wanted to simulate that you put a really heavy oil on like D5 oil and see what happens.

Then it also depends on the discussion group what if we look at another group how do they feel about it? Maybe they feel differently? The other thing of amusement in this discussion is who are these people? I happen to know that two of the people in the discussion have gone to the school wostep in Neuchâtel Switzerland obviously with different instructors as they disagree on lubrication of the pallet fork pivots. You can't even have a famous Swiss school consistently teaching the same thing how weird is that?

https://mb.nawcc.org/threads/pallet-fork-pivots.183065/

 

 

Oh, absolutely still learning.  It would be a shame to stop!

The interesting thing I found though, related to this thread (and not as much to my original question) was a problem I ran in to after oiling the pallet jewels.  With the watch oiled (and pallet fork arbor left alone), I had ~286 in dial up and dial down, and consistent amplitude in all other positions.  I had applied a small amount of 9415 to the pallet jewels before winding and letting it run.  I let it run for a while, all seemed good.  I then decided to mess with things, drained the power, and applied a little more 9415 to the escape wheel (around every third tooth).  Since then it has stuck at a steady 230 in dial up / dial down. 

I let the watch run for a few hours and it stayed the same.  Yes, I could have let it run overnight, but I felt I could have cleaned it better and decided to drain the power, strip the movement, peg the pivots, clean everything and reassemble.  Post assembly, put a little bit of 9415 on the pallet jewels…~285 amplitude.  Drained, put a little more on the escape wheel teeth (a little less than before), and it’s stuck at 230 after running all night.

Yes, I’m new to the trade (about a year and a half in), but was surprised, as whenever I oiled using this method I would see a general increase in amplitude, not a 50 point drop! I have not epilamed the escape wheel or pallet fork, and am kicking myself - I’ll tear down and do that next, but thought it would not be necessary given this is a 1925 Waltham pocket watch…

That said, thank you for the link.  Given I’m experimenting at this point, I may give oiling the pivots a try just to see what happens.  If there’s one thing I’ve learned, there is no “one way” to oil a watch that everyone agrees on (well, I think we all agree not to squirt 3-in-1 in the poor thing).

 

Dave