Centre Seconds pocket watch

[AdamC]

Hi there,

I have been privileged to get my hands on this lovely old Centre Seconds Chronograph pocket watch. This will be my first project to disassemble, clean up and oil, and hopefully get working. The balance wheel swings and ticks for a few seconds so feel confident it will work. When I checked by removing the face, the movement was smothered in quite high viscosity oil and was dirty. The hands can be set fine but I'm aware that the second hand is missing so will try and source one. The photos are of it as I received it from ebay at a bargain auction price of 99p!!

But my main question is how can I identify the age of this beauty? You may just see that under the inner cover, there is the number 13 embossed (similar to a hallmark embossing but not a HM). Could this be 1913? Any ideas, and any other tips/cautions for disassembly, cleaning and reassembly would also be greatly appreciated as I am a complete practising beginner (My only knowledge/theory obtained from Mark's fantastic videos) so for sure, will no to let down the main spring first!

Thank you,

Adam

[wls1971]

The watch is typical of a late Victorian era 1880-1900 centre seconds chronograph,  not a true chronograph because although the centre seconds hand can be stopped with a aid of a lever on the side of the watch, this stops the balance from running thus stopping the centre seconds hand. A true chronograph watch would allow the stopping and resetting of the centre seconds hand without stopping the balance and interfering with the time keeping of the watch but these compared to the watch you have would have been very expensive and beyond the reach of most.

The case is probably brass that is nickle plated and in some cases these watches have markings that appear at first glance to be hallmarks and where intended to give the impression that the case was made of silver, much in the same way that E.P.N.S items where often marked at the time..

I would not think that the 13 stamped on the case would refer to the year of manufacture as 1913 I think would be too late a date for this watch.

[AdamC]

I would not think that the 13 stamped on the case would refer to the year of manufacture as 1913 I think would be too late a date for this watch.

Thanks very much for this interesting information. I can’t wait to get it ticking again and will likely hang on to it. The dial may be a challenge though (if I even attempt the re-enamelling).

Cheers,
Adam


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[StuartBaker104]

This looks like it has a cylinder escapement. You will find a few threads about those on here. I haven’t seen all of Mark’s videos, but I doubt there are any covering the issues you will encounter.

First is that when you remove the balance cock and balance, any residual power in the mainspring will be released. Carefully wedge a piece of folded tissue paper into the train to prevent this it’s ok to let the wheels turn slowly, but at speed you may break or damage a pivot.

Second, I don’t see a screw on the hairspring stud.  It looks like the cap jewel is screwed on from the outside so you may be able to remove this to clean without separating the balance from the cock.  If not you will either have to press the stud out, which is a bit fiddly if it’s tight, or you could unpin the hairspring from the stud, but you need to note the pinning point carefully for reassembly.

Third, you will need to ensure you carefully scrape out any dried oil from inside the cylinder with some shaped pegwood... without damaging the hairspring, balance wheel or pivots.

Apart from that, it should all be straightforward, but don’t be afraid to ask questions!

[AdamC]

Thanks Stuart, I appreciate the tips. Just the sort of guidance I was hoping for. No doubt I’ll be posting more questions as I progress with the work.


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[AdamC]

I have begun stripping down the pocket movement and have come up against my first obstacle. The last cog on the bottom plate seems to be secured firmly by a collar preventing it from being pulled off. When I turn the cog I can see the hands setting winding post turning from the top plate. Would this be equivalent to the cannon pinion?

Would anyone be able to advise me how to remove this collar/cog without risking damaging it? Thinking ahead too, would there be a recommended technique to reattach it?

I have included two photos so that you can see where I mean.

Thanks in advance,
Adam



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[StuartBaker104]

Ok, so now I’m guessing as I’ve not worked on this specific type, but most likely this is a tapered press fit as would be seen on older pocket watches before we got the modern type of canon pinion.

A gentle tap on the centre shaft with a small flat punch should seperate them, or a pair of hand levers under the wheel.

[AdamC]

A gentle tap on the centre shaft with a small flat punch should seperate them, or a pair of hand levers under the wheel.

Okay thanks Stuart. I’ll give it a try tomorrow. I had already given it an initial try with the hand pulling levers but it wouldn’t shift without too much force. I may also try a pin vice.

 

 

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[vinn3]

very good find!  be very careful with that escapement.    vin

[AdamC]

very good find!  be very careful with that escapement.    vin

Thanks Vin. Probably more than I was anticipating on my first repair job but looking forward to the challenge and will be taking my time and seeking advice if unsure.


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[vinn3]

i don't  work on the cylindar escapments.  experts only.   carry on - good luck.  vin

[AdamC]

So I’ve taken the plunge and disassembled some more of this old timepiece. No surprise when I found even more dirt and thick oil smothered across the movement. So now the balance has been removed safely I would appreciate a little more advice.

 

1. Is there a preferred way to detach the balance wheel from the cock so that I can clean it?

 

2. What indeed is the best way to clean the balance wheel/hairspring when detached? My plan is to clean the other components in the ultrasonic bath.

 

I’m thoroughly enjoying this new experience and thanks for the help already shared.

 

 

 

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[Geo]

Adam. I would recommend replacing the the the balance cock assembly on the main plate and than cleaning it in the ultrasonic bath.  All the other parts should be cleaned disassembled.  If you have a close look at the balance spring you will notice that the regulator pins are holding the second coil of the spring, this is incorrect.  The outer coil of the spring should be between the pins.  

Also make sure that the points on the escape wheel are all intact, they are very easy to break.  Take great care when fitting the balance during assembly.

PS Don't remove the pin that retains the hairspring unless you really have to. 

Edited November 8, 2017 by Geo

[AdamC]

Adam. I would recommend replacing the the the balance cock assembly on the main plate and than cleaning it in the ultrasonic bath.  All the other parts should be cleaned disassembled.  If you have a close look at the balance spring you will notice that the regulator pins are holding the second coil of the spring, this is incorrect.  The outer coil of the spring should be between the pins.  
Also make sure that the points on the escape wheel are all intact, they are very easy to break.  Take great care when fitting the balance during assembly.
PS Don't remove the pin that retains the hairspring unless you really have to. 

Thanks for the great advice George. It’s much appreciated.


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[StuartBaker104]

Geo - would you advise to remove the end stone from the balance cock and balance end plate from the main plate before putting the assembly in the ultrasonic?

[Geo]

I don't usually.  Occasionally I will remove them after the ultrasonic wash and clean them separately.  

As far as this watch is concerned , removing the end stones wouldn't be an easy option.

Edited November 8, 2017 by Geo

[StuartBaker104]

1 hour ago, Geo said:

 

I don't usually.  Occasionally I will remove them after the ultrasonic wash and clean them separately

 

Thanks Geo, every day is a schoolday. 

 

1 hour ago, Geo said:

As far as this watch is concerned , removing the end stones wouldn't be an easy optio

Normally 100% with you on that,  but one of the early pictures shows the cap jewel screws on the outside of the balance... which makes lots of sense in the absence of a stud screw. Never seen that before.

[AdamC]

Thanks Geo and Stuart. I’ll let you know how I get on.


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[Geo]

Stuart you are correct, the  cap jewel on the balance cock could be removed easily.  The main plate seems to have a simple plate over the jewel which could also be removed easily.  Thanks for making me review it and look closer.

[AdamC]

Well after nearly three weeks of putting this project on hold due to work commitments, I have finally got around to cleaning the movement and reassembling. Thanks Geo for your recommendation of removing the balance cap jewel - fiddly but relatively easy and cleaned the dirt from this area. See photos below.

Now after re-assembly, I have a new problem. Although very fiddly to engage the balance cylinder with the escape wheel and its pivot, I managed to do it okay. Carefully spun the wheels and everything seemed to work, though the escape wheel was hit and miss, so I thought I'd get the bridge on and see if the alignment would help. Again, no problem carefully fitting the bridge but when the balance wheel swings, it only intermittently moves the escape wheel (and yes when this happens, the other wheels turn freely).

So this morning, I took the plunge and disassembled again to make a closer examination of the escape wheel pivots and its bridge arm. It was then that I noticed what I think is a fracture in the jewel, which I have attempted to show in the photos. I've also noticed that when laid flat (inverted), the bridge arm end is slightly bent down at the jewel end but again, I'm not sure whether this could be by design.

Any suggestions for resolutions would be gratefully received. I must re-iterate this is my first project ever, so excuse any bad terminology or naiveness 

 

Edited November 26, 2017 by AdamC