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My First Balance Staff - Need some advive

jdrichard

By jdrichard
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jdrichard Distinguished Member

jdrichard

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I just completed cutting my first balance staff on a lathe. All went well on the balance/hairspring side, including undercutting and leaving enough material to make the rivet. On the roller table side however, i cut a smidgen too much. Is there any way to tighten the roller table on or di i need to cut a new staff? I thought shellac on the post would harden and keep the table on. I still need to jacott the pivots, so am i waisting my time?

a661fc5f83101f0c50e6545520c5acf2.jpg9448f018ba52bc5ef968bc5b4f4572b9.jpg3c3e89d6b4af556e1689c44da6b6107a.jpg1fa364090bf8573a1573fe5b75db3049.jpga4dc217c5419d43dca0d97c40c1efb15.jpg26d4ecb70462e727ae771970d2d81a9e.jpgb2350b43733b2e39b0354d80d4f46aa5.jpg5b4c9e301b8ee136310fa056540830ed.jpg3aa5394b4d32b37db8f3cc63b55a2a67.jpg6b9c2d27bd3c565309c52db146a43f28.jpg

 

 

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digginstony Super WRT Addict

digginstony

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I just completed cutting my first balance staff on a lathe. All went well on the balance/hairspring side, including undercutting and leaving enough material to make the rivet. On the roller table side however, i cut a smidgen too much. Is there any way to tighten the roller table on or di i need to cut a new staff? I thought shellac on the post would harden and keep the table on. I still need to jacott the pivots, so am i waisting my time?
a661fc5f83101f0c50e6545520c5acf2.jpg&key=b63cfe8f836ff14588d3c1c5f13600455fa785f06c37f0c09647ab1e1c649c4b9448f018ba52bc5ef968bc5b4f4572b9.jpg&key=a150f0a233c327a68af670bb2cab24a85616bb20889a849a9c04e63f9794eaf13c3e89d6b4af556e1689c44da6b6107a.jpg&key=429ae1a5f0fa40a6eae5074b62565652e2e68ed4b84e84fa6bf4e9ac7577b0131fa364090bf8573a1573fe5b75db3049.jpg&key=4afb3571344584787b4c366efb07ac9f7704f5efbb9f37274e08c1d06a5749eea4dc217c5419d43dca0d97c40c1efb15.jpg&key=3d8c789ab151e06eac6e3d3e87d87c931ccade8993c72f9679c58c09ac46fd3326d4ecb70462e727ae771970d2d81a9e.jpg&key=becc5cd55829a6f37fe357ecef8f6529bc405976072628b86c948936a8f5cb5bb2350b43733b2e39b0354d80d4f46aa5.jpg&key=57c0ea5c34d285f72ebb03f87e472c7bc90d6407fcb6c3a4b8a0a3fbfc0aa46f5b4c9e301b8ee136310fa056540830ed.jpg&key=e2be288fe7c1abecd4f750c87b875a430eeff3b837579a7a603d8d7151987dbc3aa5394b4d32b37db8f3cc63b55a2a67.jpg&key=98fde1ccf489a7287489bf7be057875e66544264ac70259f3f4ef4b5c3fa8be16b9c2d27bd3c565309c52db146a43f28.jpg&key=6aa72996c4296f0d2638e431327f81b4de3bac241fb6ff01e769113f1f375b27
 
 
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Amazing job and well beyond my capabilities! But I'm thinking forget the staff and concentrate on the roller table.
Try closing the hole with a suitable stake. Careful not to catch the jewel

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jdrichard Distinguished Member

jdrichard

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Amazing job and well beyond my capabilities! But I'm thinking forget the staff and concentrate on the roller table.

Try closing the hole with a suitable stake. Careful not to catch the jewel

 

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Turns out you can close the hole in a balance table using the following:

e08da0802507253cbdfa3983e3813994.jpg

 

 

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digginstony Super WRT Addict

digginstony

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It worked. Now all i need to do is reduce the pivot size.066b34e7449d8121f48dd58f3efeb696.jpg&key=2e09e2bc75e7013778e9dac2d7ced237c7beea7b6e31b66d6b374ebbc4770f7e06fd1a18ae23b55de00406c58be6b238.jpg&key=3ecc20adea0d2bb606e715d3d0865230a4b21cdacec9e042e6abe25a664672b1ad7a86877432a4f0e940e05c14273413.jpg&key=88f2283ef9e039d019b8bbe99c10d8596351212d1233fb0de3e4646d9d94f784
Remember, i play guitar, thus the long nails:)
 
 
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Excellent, is that a reverso staking set and you've used two stakes, the bottom being solid flat. Or is it a traditional stump ?

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jdrichard Distinguished Member

jdrichard

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Excellent, is that a reverso staking set and you've used two stakes, the bottom being solid flat. Or is it a traditional stump ?

 

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You are correct. Flat Stake on bottom and round one on the top. Took a bit of pounding as well.

 

 

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oldhippy Distinguished Member

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You have achieved what is probably the hardest thing to make in in horology. You could have used lock tight; there are many types such as a thread lock tight, many people who make parts on lathes use it.

When using a punch you have to be very careful not to split the roller.

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jdrichard Distinguished Member

jdrichard

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You have achieved what is probably the hardest thing to make in in horology. You could have used lock tight; there are many types such as a thread lock tight, many people who make parts on lathes use it.


When using a punch you have to be very careful not to split the roller.

Good advice. I'm going to cut a second balance staff this week. Finishing the pivots tonight, as my 4 new 0.2 and 0.4 round and flat carbide gravers are coming in tonight and a really need that round shape to finish the cone on the pivot.

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jdrichard Distinguished Member

jdrichard

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I have the two sets of videos on using a lathe and I have the bible book on lathes "modern watchmakers lathe and how to use it" as well as practical watch repair and many other books. I have watched and read it all so my brain has the knowledge. Then I practiced for a week (4 hours or so) on brass stock. I then cot a stem using blue steel. And then I tackled the balance staff; taking my time and measuring and fitting as I built the part. I have learned about taking it slow as I over cut the roller table shaft a bit....good lesson. Next staff will be a lot better.

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jdrichard Distinguished Member

jdrichard

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Are you doing anything different this time?


I am taking more time to taper the shaft so I don’t over cut any part (like the roller table last time). I also got four 0.2 and 0.4 square and round carbide gravers to finish the pivot better. I also started with 1.97 mm blue steel this time, so less cutting to the first diameter.

I am going to cut the staff with the stock attached and only leaving the Roller Table side pivot to complete. So i will complete one pivot before cutting off the part and reattaching to finish the roller side. I also purchased a triangle shaped Arkansas stone to finish the pivots, just prior to burnishing.


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Tim Member

Tim

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What you did ~works~ in an <insert zenophobic ethnic slur here> worker kind of way. If you blow a measurement on a staff, only solution is to start again. What you did would work on a clock, but centricity on a watch balance is too critical. By tightening the roller table in a staking set you've mangled the center and I'd be surprised if you got that thing even well poised. Like I said though, it will ~work~ but you've just forfeited precision and introduced positional timing variability. 

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oldhippy Distinguished Member

oldhippy

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19 minutes ago, Tim said:

What you did ~works~ in an <insert zenophobic ethnic slur here> worker kind of way. If you blow a measurement on a staff, only solution is to start again. What you did would work on a clock, but centricity on a watch balance is too critical. By tightening the roller table in a staking set you've mangled the center and I'd be surprised if you got that thing even well poised. Like I said though, it will ~work~ but you've just forfeited precision and introduced positional timing variability. 

It will cause poor time keeping in a clock, so in fact it will not work.

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digginstony Super WRT Addict

digginstony

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My experience with this is mainly pocket watches, in particular, "Waltham" The roller table is a friction fit and once removed for any reason can, on reassembly become loose, especially if removed several times. Reducing the bore size of the roller table is a method of rectification and would have Zero effect on the balance poise.
Also when fitting a new staff; even a factory manufactured one, on these old watches it is quite common to secure the balance wheel to the shaft in the way Jdrichard has done. Though a suitable hollow stump under the wheel arm is advisable, to avoid distortion to the balance wheel itself.

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jdrichard Distinguished Member

jdrichard

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My experience with this is mainly pocket watches, in particular, "Waltham" The roller table is a friction fit and once removed for any reason can, on reassembly become loose, especially if removed several times. Reducing the bore size of the roller table is a method of rectification and would have Zero effect on the balance poise.
Also when fitting a new staff; even a factory manufactured one, on these old watches it is quite common to secure the balance wheel to the shaft in the way Jdrichard has done. Though a suitable hollow stump under the wheel arm is advisable, to avoid distortion to the balance wheel itself.

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Digg is correct. This is a riveted staff so there is only one way to put it on. It is NOT a friction fit staff. I could have cut another staff, however, the text books do state that you can adjust the hole on the roller table the way i did it.


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