Watchmakers Lathe Or Mini Lathe

[JohnR725]

35 minutes ago, jdm said:

Remember, only fools blames their tools.

Personally what I always find interesting is what people can do with tools that other people perhaps feel are less than desirable. Of course you have to have skills to use these tools. But still you find all kinds a interesting examples of wonderfully made stuff with tools that are wonderfully made. Although it would be easier if you made stuff with better tools the first place but still it's not usually the tool lets the problem.

Then as the original posting price of what was wanted to be spent was pounds Sterling here's a thought? Looks like a trade fair and they have people selling tools.

https://www.thebirminghamclockandwatchfair.com/traders

For instance this is a vendor that snap the fair the last time this fair came up somebody in the group said they had purchased tools from this company. Looks like they have a variety of lathes but a lot of them up and sold and it would be really nice if they enlisted the selling price for not seeing that but still even an idea they might have something of interest. The other thing is you go talk to somebody like this a bit I can find you something

https://pennyfarthingtools.co.uk/

47 minutes ago, jdm said:

Here's a random one by blondidhacks, have you ever heard of her? She has no problem in getting great results from her Chinese lathe. Remember, only fools blames their tools.

Haven't heard of her but the video did look interesting. Then she definitely understands how to use it which is why she's getting wonderful results.

[JohnR725]

13 minutes ago, oldhippy said:

Here look at this pile of crap video.

Yes he did seem to have some minor problems with quality control didn't ?

It's back to the problem of the quality of Chinese tools ranges from very bad to very good. Just have to be really careful when you're making your purchase as to you getting the good one. For instance I have some links there is one first link and you notice the reviews for the most part a pretty good some people don't like plastic gears.

https://www.grizzly.com/products/grizzly-7-x-12-mini-metal-lathe/g8688

Then here's an example of an improvement notice there's no longer plastic gears

https://littlemachineshop.com/products/product_view.php?ProductID=5100

Then I was pretty sure I remember this group existing or this website all about the mini lathe. It really is a very popular lathe.

http://www.mini-lathe.com/Mini_lathe/Modifications/modifications.htm

[Klassiker]

57 minutes ago, oldhippy said:

Here look at this pile of crap video

I did have a look, but I missed the bit where he called it a pile of crap. I saw the bit where he said it performed pretty good, especially for the price.

[jdm]

6 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

For instance I have some links there is one first link and you notice the reviews for the most part a pretty good some people don't like plastic gears.

I for one don't like plastic on machinery. Luckily my lathe change gears are cast iron, and I do spend a lot of time in re-making plastic parts in steel, bronze, or brass. That being said, the truth is, change gears need to carry little torque on a small machine. If exceeding stress is given to these during power advance turning or screwcutting, you are doing something very wrong. So plastic (nylon actually) is perfectly suited for the task, and if it enables someone to learn and do as opposes to not do , I'm happy they do make like that.

 

5 hours ago, Klassiker said:

I did have a look, but I missed the bit where he called it a pile of crap. I saw the bit where he said it performed pretty good, especially for the price.

All it takes is to read few comments on this type of videos to learn the informed feedback from machining hobbyists, they are all saying the same: there can be a big difference in buying China made at lowest price (Vevor is an example), or from reputable importers, e.g. Optimum, Warco, Axminister, Precision Matthews, Sieg factory.. I could add another 10 names here easily. 
Unfortunately some people has difficulty coming to terms with the fact is that the good old times of UK/EU/US made small machinery are gone (exception: Wabeco Germany, nice products and direct sale) and won't come back, and even that back at the time a small setup was easily 2 months average salary, nowadays you can be productive with a quarter of that. 

 

 

[oldhippy]

1 hour ago, Klassiker said:

I did have a look, but I missed the bit where he called it a pile of crap. I saw the bit where he said it performed pretty good, especially for the price.

It preformed so good he had to send it back. I don't know about you but when I buy something I expert it be in tip top condition that means no broken parts, finished properly and I expect it to last. I notice no one has mentioned those gear wheels that are not made of steel but looks like plastic.  

[jdm]

4 hours ago, oldhippy said:

It preformed so good he had to send it back. I don't know about you but when I buy something I expert it be in tip top condition that means no broken parts, finished properly and I expect it to last.

That only happens in an ideal world. The guy went for the lowest price, and was served accordingly.
But evidently not all the Chinese lathes have been sent back, otherwise the importers and resellers would have gave up on them a long time ago. You may not like the notion, but in most cases they perform from good to very good.

Here's another link from very British "Model Engineer".  They (and I) are the kind of people that don't buy for collecting, but to do things and report on them without prejudice 

https://www.model-engineer.co.uk/forums/postings.asp?th=137849

Then if you like video better here a 2 yr after review, randomly chosen.

 

4 hours ago, oldhippy said:

I notice no one has mentioned those gear wheels that are not made of steel but looks like plastic.  

No one but two comments up on this page alone, then as many you want on YouTube and any machining forum.

[oldhippy]

Regardless of what you think I would never buy a lathe made by the Chinese. Beside I'm happy with the two Unimat 3's I have both have the milling attachments and I have loads of accessories. As I don't hardly use them now I have no need for other lathes.   

[david]

If you purchase a mill or lathe, match it to the work you plan to do on it. If you plan to do larger work, you need a larger machine with more power. If you plan to do single point threading, you will need an engine lathe with a leadscrew and change gears.  Larger engine lathes work better than smaller engine lathes.  A smaller machine like a watchmaker lathe isn't more precise than a precision machine that is larger. That said, it is far more suited to make tiny watch parts requiring smaller tools and less cutting pressure.  I would avoid any lathes or milling machines with aluminum ways.  Aluminum is a softer material than steel and is more sensitive to dimensional changes due to changes in temperature. Also it offers less resistance to warping due to clamping and cutter pressure than steel.  Adding  a hard anodized finish doesn't solve the warpage issues.  An aluminum mill or lathe will never perform better than a desktop hobby tool. 

[jdm]

1 hour ago, david said:

I you plan to do larger work, you need a larger machine with more power.

Correct. Nowadays you can get significant power, and more importantly constant torque thanks to inverters driving triphase motors, even on small lathes, e.g.

https://www.warco.co.uk/metal-lathes/303007-wm-250v-lathe.html

That one is biggish end expensive, but now inverter and motor kits have become available also for small ones as 180mm swing.

 

1 hour ago, david said:

would avoid any lathes or milling machines with aluminum ways.

I believe only Sherline has aluminum bed and ways. Even my modest Sieg C0 has induction hardened ways.

[jdm]

13 hours ago, david said:

When all is said and done the Vector lathe is a Sincere lathe with a jacked up price.   Both the Sincere and the Vector lathes are good quality watchmaker lathes and are adequate machines to make staffs, pivots, screws and other small watch size parts.

To put a price tag on all that I made a spreadsheet with prices.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/e/2PACX-1vSWfhOjlAfpI_c1EWF8MPSKnbIVIPoIH6mxCC1nVYQPQ8cJbiwBhLc1v597F9Z_AZteVKsfJ1lZDOOe/pubhtml

Like everything else these have likely increased enow.  Few more considerations in the original thread below.

 

[Klassiker]

17 hours ago, oldhippy said:

It preformed so good he had to send it back.

No, he didn't. I'm sure he could have, and I'm not sure why he didn't, but in fact he goes on to make an interesting series of videos detailing all the faults he found, and how he went about correcting them. We can all watch videos on YouTube, but what you make of them is a subjective thing. It depends for example on your own skills and confidence, and how much time and effort you'd be prepared to put in to repairing faults which should never have left the factory. The monetary cost of the repairs was low, so for some people, even this might be a good deal.

To just dismiss an entire swathe of different products as "a waste of money" or "a pile of crap" simply because they are made in China is just wrong and doesn't add anything valuable to the thread, in my opinion. The videos were good though, very informative, so thanks for the link.

[oldhippy]

45 minutes ago, Klassiker said:

No, he didn't. I'm sure he could have, and I'm not sure why he didn't, but in fact he goes on to make an interesting series of videos detailing all the faults he found, and how he went about correcting them. We can all watch videos on YouTube, but what you make of them is a subjective thing. It depends for example on your own skills and confidence, and how much time and effort you'd be prepared to put in to repairing faults which should never have left the factory. The monetary cost of the repairs was low, so for some people, even this might be a good deal.

To just dismiss an entire swathe of different products as "a waste of money" or "a pile of crap" simply because they are made in China is just wrong and doesn't add anything valuable to the thread, in my opinion. The videos were good though, very informative, so thanks for the link.

AT 14.54 He says this lathe is going to have to go back and he is going to get a replacement. 

[jdm]

10 hours ago, Klassiker said:

 It depends for example on your own skills and confidence, and how much time and effort you'd be prepared to put in to repairing faults which should never have left the factory.

That is what can happen when, as mentioned before, one buys at the lowest price. Some YouTubbers do that just for or the purpose of making a video, as in the one below. The author is a very good machinist, but I think he has just wasted his time and money, and not helped his reputation in doing it. https://youtu.be/tl68jGmtsxY

On the other hand, when buying selected 'brands', like the few I have mentioned previously, you can be quite confident that there will be no faults or defects, and even if there are, the dealer will take responsibility as the law mandate and beyond. The rest is just about making improvements, but these belongs to a different chapter.
The problem with opinionated die-hards is that they refuse to even go looking into what to others are normal considerations. They take a black or white stance, which in practice is biased prejudice, without even having put hands, and much less used, any of the 'good' products.

[jdm]

35 minutes ago, JohnR725 said:

One of the problems with moving discussions and combining them in with other discussions is questions get lost perhaps?

The question you're referring to is indeed in this very topic, link: https://www.watchrepairtalk.com/topic/7162-watchmakers-lathe-or-mini-lathe/?do=findComment&comment=183413

If some posting it is not perfectly on topic, that is OK. Major off-topic may occasionally be split off. Thank you for understanding.

 

35 minutes ago, JohnR725 said:

So did we come up with a good idea for this question that was originally asked?

You and others have already provided answers, everyone is welcome to add more at any time.

 

 

[Angrybear]

Wow, I wasn’t expecting that! Thanks all for your comprehensive if sometimes opposed views. There is a lot to digest here. Give me a couple of days to go through it all very carefully and I’ll let you know what I decide to purchase. 
since reading this I have now written off the proxxon and I’m fairly certain I have it down to either the Warco WM180, the Seig SC2 or the Axminster SC2. Any further personal preference on these companies in particular is very welcome. 

[jdm]

50 minutes ago, Angrybear said:

I’m fairly certain I have it down to either the Warco WM180

I spoke to Warco on the prospective of buying a bigger lathe and their answers were timely and complete. I like the fact that they normally include more important accessories in the delivery, these may not be useful for working on watch cases except for a 4 jaws chuck, but never say never, you may need them for making tools and other general stuff. You gain a lot of points with local business owners for being able to make parts for them.

 

50 minutes ago, Angrybear said:

the Seig SC2 or the Axminster SC2. 

These are the same machine from the same factory. I bought my SC0 from Axminster and they have been impeccable in the purchase and sending a replacement crossslide nut which had worn out way too quickly. 

My other advice is to buy an ER16 colletts chuck, a QCTP, and if possible at all, a milling machine from the get go. If not possibile, a Z- axis slide attachment.

[david]

Angry Bear, 

If you live in the USA take a look at Grizzly Tools and Harbor Freight. Grizzly machines are fairly consistent in their quality while Harbor Freight has some good quality and lesser quality offerings. It depends on the machine and the quality can vary from batch to batch.  Grizzly has a quality control and inspection department and is able to offer more consistent quality.  Their machines also cost more.   I have purchased some very nice machine tools from both companies.  Some of the Harbor Freight tools had to be taken apart and reworked in certain areas;  but in the end, ended up as a nice machine.  As long as the machine is made out of steel it can be machined back into specs.  If it is aluminum with anodized ways, it is essentially a disposable item. 

david

[JohnR725]

23 minutes ago, Angrybear said:

since reading this I have now written off the proxxon and I’m fairly certain I have it down to either the Warco WM180, the Seig SC2 or the Axminster SC2. Any further personal preference on these companies in particular is very welcome. 

The other thing really important you have to think about is? Even though you weren't planning on doing watch work a lot of what you're doing is watch work. So when you look at the various tools you have to think about how are you going to hold your components.

Like a watchmakers bezel Chuck for instance? Some lathes have adapters so you could use a bezel Chuck on a bigger lathe. I know for instance I have an adapter to hold watchmakers collets on 11 inch Logan lathe. Yes it's a really big lathe but it still has an adapter and I can hold watchmakers collets. But it didn't come with one of those I inherited the lathes from my father who made The adapter. Which brings up the other thing if you have a lathe and you know how to use it you can make your own adapters. It just depends on how far you want to go as to what you want to make all your own tooling or pick a lathe that possibly has all of these things that you need to do what you want to do

 

[oldhippy]

I'm going to be very biased here. I went to school and worked as a watch and clock maker in Axminster town. I even know the people that started Axminster Tools and some of the staff. When they first came to Axminster I think it was around the late 70's, I would go and look around there shop and talk to some of the staff while I had a watch cleaning in the machine, the machine was an auto type so when I returned  all I had to do was put the thing together. So you have to go with the Axminster  SC2 

[jdm]

With the agreement of at least one author few posts about high precision lathes have been split to a new topic:

 

 

[clockboy]

When I purchased my watchmakers lathe (Star) I was told I would also need a Mini lathe as well if I intended to repair clocks. This is true especially if making clock parts but I do not have enough room in my small workshop. I did notice that our Mark used to use a Chinese watchmakers lathe I wonder if he still uses it.I have looked at mini lathes the Unimat looks good and is very popular and Cowels also produced a mini lathe that also looks to be solidly built.  If I clear my garage I am tempted but I will avoid the Chinese lathes. 

[jdm]

39 minutes ago, clockboy said:

Cowels also produced a mini lathe that also looks to be solidly built. 

The Cowells is a special case, beside that are the very last UK manufacturer still on existence, they make both a model engineer, and a clock and watchmaker version. It is an high precision tool, they also make all their high precision collets and accessories, for a related high price of course.

https://watchmaking.weebly.com/cowells-90cw.html

[david]

JDM,

I believe Colchester is still in business.  

[jdm]

3 hours ago, david said:

I believe Colchester is still in business.  

Yes they are. However, beside these are all  I machines, I am  pretty sure that the traditional types they sell is imported, and all the rest too. This is a simple fact, the Western World we don't makes this kind of machines anymore. Maybe Shaublin is left as an exception, like Wabeco is. Even Adam Booth of YouTube fame had to resort buying a Taiwanes lathe at this time, and believe me he's quite strict and proud about buying American, or European.