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Hand setting problems


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Some problems seem to come in clusters. Currently I'm plagued by difficulties with hand setting. I'm mostly handling old and very old watches which may well be a factor. The most common issue is usually that after cleaning and sometimes re-luming hands, particularly minute hands, the hand is too slack a fit. This is even worse when it has been necessary to remove hands several times as a blunderer like myself sometimes has to do as he chases problems round in hopefully ever decreasing circles. I've been working on a couple of hunters recently which bring amplified problems compared to regular open faced watches. Getting all three hands to clear one another is one thing but getting them to do so when the very low profile crystal is fitted is another. A couple of times I've thought "this is impossible" and the amount of time I've spent on it is ridiculous. And of course the constant adjustment rapidly slackens off the fit to the point of non-fit.

I suppose the associated question is has anyone thought up a way of slightly decreasing the diameter of pipe-less hand apertures? One thing I've tried which is semi successful (one time only procedure) is to put a tiny drop of hypo glue on the hole from the back of the hand, then let it dry for a good long time, then prod a tiny hole in it followed by fitting the hand (and getting that right first time as you don't get a second chance without repeating the entire process.) This glue has a rubbery consistency when set which means it tends to act like a gasket/washer. What I really need is some anti-broaches...

Roy

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Some problems seem to come in clusters. Currently I'm plagued by difficulties with hand setting. I'm mostly handling old and very old watches which may well be a factor. The most common issue is usually that after cleaning and sometimes re-luming hands, particularly minute hands, the hand is too slack a fit. This is even worse when it has been necessary to remove hands several times as a blunderer like myself sometimes has to do as he chases problems round in hopefully ever decreasing circles. I've been working on a couple of hunters recently which bring amplified problems compared to regular open faced watches. Getting all three hands to clear one another is one thing but getting them to do so when the very low profile crystal is fitted is another. A couple of times I've thought "this is impossible" and the amount of time I've spent on it is ridiculous. And of course the constant adjustment rapidly slackens off the fit to the point of non-fit.
I suppose the associated question is has anyone thought up a way of slightly decreasing the diameter of pipe-less hand apertures? One thing I've tried which is semi successful (one time only procedure) is to put a tiny drop of hypo glue on the hole from the back of the hand, then let it dry for a good long time, then prod a tiny hole in it followed by fitting the hand (and getting that right first time as you don't get a second chance without repeating the entire process.) This glue has a rubbery consistency when set which means it tends to act like a gasket/washer. What I really need is some anti-broaches...
Roy



I'd avoid glue on hands like the plague!

So, the orthodox way of fixing the problem: use the staking too with a concave punch to reduce the diameter of the tube. This should be followed by gentle broaching on the lathe to the size of the pivot or 1/10th smaller for the friction fit.

More practical, since most of us don't have a lathe, do a gentle tap on the staking tool after you double check the tube is not fractured. If it is, you'll either have to replace the tube or the entire hand.

I hope this helps.




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Most of the minute hands don't have a tube!

Obviously glue is undesirable but once set it's pretty much rubber. And I just realised that most foils are far too big however there are a few in every pack that are "blind".

Roy

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Most of the minute hands don't have a tube!
Obviously glue is undesirable but once set it's pretty much rubber. And I just realised that most foils are far too big however there are a few in every pack that are "blind".
Roy



My bad, was thinking on the seconds hand which is what I've gotten messed up a few times [emoji12]

I haven't had the issue with the minute hand but the same applies to the punches to close holes. You may have a scan of the staking tool directions but if you don't I can look for mine. If should close enough for the hand to fit again.

Cheers!




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Have used acrylic matt or satin varnish a couple of times with success. It goes into the gap and hardens. How it works in the long run i haven't tested. But a few years it's been running now without any problems. 

Very very little on an oiler. And has to be waterbased as it's sucks in much better. I have used Vallejo paint.  

But take care as you don't want it to go into the movement. or further down the wheels. I remove the residues with Rodico before putting on the second hand. A day after . 

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2 hours ago, rogart63 said:

Have used acrylic matt or satin varnish a couple of times with success. It goes into the gap and hardens. How it works in the long run i haven't tested. But a few years it's been running now without any problems. 

Very very little on an oiler. And has to be waterbased as it's sucks in much better. I have used Vallejo paint.  

Have not used any sort of glue yet but i was thinking on dissolved shellack before. Dissolved in alcohol making a thick solution. It has a consistency like You described and the joint will suck it and wont flow around. Someone should give that a try :)

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Thanks for the interesting solutions suggested. I too have tried lacquer in the past. "Glue" is obviously an alarm word where watches are concerned but by waiting for it to dry (24 hours to set completely in the case of hypo cement) its consistency is a bit like rubber.

In the case of hunters nothing works. I'm just about to withdraw a listing because nothing I can do will prevent the hands jhamming at some point in the 12 hour cycle. I give up. Anyone want a hunter for scrap?

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No endorsements for any type of glue [emoji16]As jguitron has stated. This is the correct method to reduce the bore diameter of the hand. You can lightly use a hand broach afterwards if a lathe is unavailable. Another way of doing this is to use a pointed stake close to the bore and to make a small indentation, this will displace metal inward and grab but a concave stake is best. If you don't have a staking set. Use a cheap small flat headed screwdriver. File the head to a point so you can make small indentations to displace metal.
I think some of the problem is the OP is trying to apply modern watchmaking techniques ie.. fitting the hands in a true horizontal position. But as the OP has pointed out, the minute hand is pipeless. Oldtimers firstly, set the hands at 3 o'clock and not twelve as we would today. This achieved more accurate alignment and why wouldn't you, if the watch has no "Complications"
Dealing with the minute hand. After fitting (being pipeless) You can at the pivot end , gently rock the minute hand up and down using tweezers, without constantly removing the hand, until you reach the desired result.

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Thanks for the suggestions one and all.

To clear up an ambiguity, it's hunter wristwatches rather than the PWs that are driving me to distraction. The extremely low dome makes the tolerances for hand setting extremely critical (by my criteria at least). Added to the extreme fragility of mineral glass of this thin variety. I broke the last one a week ago and I'm on to a solitary UB example that I have left. Now the bezel has been on and off so many times I'm starting to fear for its fit too. 

The first hunter I tried to tidy up had me scratching my head until I realised that the hands were rotating in the manner of a fairground ride. Bent pinion; that one's cooling its hands in a drawer.

The idea of notching the bore of the hand has occurred to me but I've yet to try it. I have just had a new asymmetrical crystal made for a Tiffany/Buren PW and refitting that minute hand is also now giving me trouble, having just cleaned and re-lumed it. As I mentioned, sometimes it's ever-decreasing but often ever-increasing when it's not just circles.

I don't usually give up, I just threaten myself and move on to ****ering up something else...

Roy

 

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It depends on how the centre of the hand is constructed. For the hands with pipes a tiny squeeze with a pin vice and for the hands that just have a hole then a tiny tap with a closing punch. HOWEVER always put a brass /steel tapered pin in it,s centre before adjustments. This stops going out of round & gives you an idea of the amount of adjustment being achieved, Hands are very delicate so gently does it when adjusting. Using glue in my opinion is a very bad idea.

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