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Seiko 7009 Hairspring


Pip

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Hey all,

I am having a bit of trouble with a hairspring on a 7009. Now I have very much still got my L plates on so let me know if I'm being dim...

 

I have cleaned up a 7009, all disassembled and cleaned, a couple of new parts sourced. And all seems to finally be sitting perfectly, all the train interacts perfectly and the pallet rocks back and forth nicely engaging with the escape wheel.

 

However, as soon as I put in the hairspring, nothing works any more. It all looks fine to me, pretty much concentric rings that are parallel horizontally (remember - L plates!) and the pinions are seated correctly I think although it still feels a bit wobbly.

 

Before I buy a new hairspring and try that, is there anything I'm doing that is obviously silly? Anything that I should be checking out?

 

Some pictures below.

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44b5ee41bf6f3cd933536f17cf4aa085.jpg

 

Thanks in advance.

 

 

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The parts replaced are they to do with the balance or escapement. Did you remove the jewel caps, if so have you put them back correctly and have you used the correct oil? Is the balance staff good with no wear? Have you checked to see if the hairspring is free away from rubbing the balance wheel or balance cock, is the balance rubbing on the stud? Are the pallet stones correct and not loose, the same with the impulse pin? What is the end shake like in the balance?

Check all this and then get back. Others will also come up with things to check.

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1 hour ago, oldhippy said:

The parts replaced are they to do with the balance or escapement. Did you remove the jewel caps, if so have you put them back correctly and have you used the correct oil? Is the balance staff good with no wear? Have you checked to see if the hairspring is free away from rubbing the balance wheel or balance cock, is the balance rubbing on the stud? Are the pallet stones correct and not loose, the same with the impulse pin? What is the end shake like in the balance?

 

Check all this and then get back. Others will also come up with things to check.

 

Thanks for your help. New pallet fork put in as the pinion was damaged on the original one. Cap jewels removed, put back correctly (I think) and oiled with 9010. I was quite chuffed with this as have never tackled diafix before and didn't have any pings! Balance staff may be worn as the watch is well used.Hairspring seems free of balance wheel and cock although it's difficult to see. I get the feeling more that the balance wheel is very slightly touching on something and that maybe the vertical placement of the balance is not good... something I think is rubbing on something. I'll have to check end shake, after I have a read up of what I should be looking for. More to follow tonight, although I think I'll spring for a new balance so I can compare the two under the microscope as that might make it obvious.

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Follow old hippies checks. Looking at your pics there is nothing wrong with the hairspring. Just a thought when you attached the hairspring & bridge did the impulse jewel engage correctly with the pallet horn.

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6 hours ago, clockboy said:

Follow old hippies checks. Looking at your pics there is nothing wrong with the hairspring. Just a thought when you attached the hairspring & bridge did the impulse jewel engage correctly with the pallet horn.

I'm gonna say not, as before the HS is in the pallet moves beautifully with the gear train and escapement, but once the HS is inserted nothing moves properly. What's the best way to sort this? I have checked (by removing the diafix jewels) that the pinions are located. However, the 'body' of the balance does seem to move up and down still.

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6 hours ago, oldhippy said:

Make sure you have the right pallets, if you have the old ones, do they look the same height and length. Are you sure, you have the pallet bridge seated correctly with the correct screws.

 

The pallet is from Cousins and has the right part number. One side looks the same, the other side was missing on the old pallet. And I'm sure I eventually got the pallet seated correctly after a bit of prodding (I use my black oiler gently prod things into place with the pallet screws very loose and gradually tighten them up checking all the way) as it was all moving beautifully prior to the HS going in. Up until that point I had the movement working well up until I inserted the pallet, so I'm moving forward at least!

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It is easy to replace the complete but one should learn to determine errors and then adjust. Currently working on a HMT, it had a kinked HS... it wa s a pain to find the kink and bend it back... terribly small :)

If the fork is ok after checking as suggested, then i would first check for beat error and demagnetize. Any strange sound on the timegrapher? What is the amplitude? 

If nmothing unusual, then strip down the balance. Let down the mainspring and remove the fork. Put back the balance (without HS) and check for endshake and sideshake as suggested. Spinning freely in all positions? 

If ok, then remove the cock and mount the HS on it (without balance). Is it flat and parallal to the cock if holding vertical? Adjusting pins are not touching the end curve? Are they following the end curve if moved back and forth?

 

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As mentioned above have you installed the balance corectly so the endstone of the balanace goes into the horn on the pallet.

An easy check of this is very gently with some pegwood nudge the balace.

if you can feel resistance like it is hitting something you have installed the balance incorrectly.

Remove the balance, gently push the pallet so the horn faces towards the centre of the movement.

Hold the balance cock at 90 degrees to the movement so teh impulse jewel is pointing towrads the centre of the movement.

carefully lower the balance so it engages in the bottom jewel and then rotate the movement with your other hand so the balance is lined up in position. If you have done this correctly all should be good. Once you have the balance cock in place check the balance for free movement. If not remove and try again.

 

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It is easy to replace the complete but one should learn to determine errors and then adjust. Currently working on a HMT, it had a kinked HS... it wa s a pain to find the kink and bend it back... terribly small [emoji4]
If the fork is ok after checking as suggested, then i would first check for beat error and demagnetize. Any strange sound on the timegrapher? What is the amplitude? 
If nmothing unusual, then strip down the balance. Let down the mainspring and remove the fork. Put back the balance (without HS) and check for endshake and sideshake as suggested. Spinning freely in all positions? 
If ok, then remove the cock and mount the HS on it (without balance). Is it flat and parallal to the cock if holding vertical? Adjusting pins are not touching the end curve? Are they following the end curve if moved back and forth?
 

A lot of that is somewhat beyond me at the moment... I've still got L plates remember! I don't have a Timegrapher yet (apart from an app on my phone) but as the hairspring doesn't work properly I'm not sure what I'd learn as I know the watch won't work?


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As mentioned above have you installed the balance corectly so the endstone of the balanace goes into the horn on the pallet.
An easy check of this is very gently with some pegwood nudge the balace.
if you can feel resistance like it is hitting something you have installed the balance incorrectly.
Remove the balance, gently push the pallet so the horn faces towards the centre of the movement.
Hold the balance cock at 90 degrees to the movement so teh impulse jewel is pointing towrads the centre of the movement.
carefully lower the balance so it engages in the bottom jewel and then rotate the movement with your other hand so the balance is lined up in position. If you have done this correctly all should be good. Once you have the balance cock in place check the balance for free movement. If not remove and try again.
 

Thanks for the advice, sounds promising and I will be back at this movement tomorrow.


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Well this is enormously frustrating. As someone withL plates still attached I've never gone beyond removing and reinstalling a working complete balance assembly before. And I finally had one attempt too many taking this out and putting it back in and just turned it into a lovely cone shape.

 

I think it's time for red wine and a bit of thinking. I feel that the problem is that I'm just doing something simple quite wrong. I have tried to make sure the impulse gets engaged. I've tried manipulating gently. Time to step away, read some more, and return on a different day.

 

 

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If ok, then remove the cock and mount the HS on it (without balance).

What do you mean? Seiko balance and hairsping are never to be taken apart. To all effects they're one single part.

OP: in my experience it takes a of destruction to become proficient with this type of Seiko escapement. Don't be put down, but at the same time do not assume it's easy at all. That even before going to manipulate the HS.


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This is my technique to install a Seiko balance, which I think is good for any modern watch.

  1. Work with both jewels removed .That is not only a logical sequence while reassembling (you will need the cock in place to install the top jewel), but the additional pivot play will help the impulse to fall in place naturally.
  2. Hold the cock and wheel together with a wide tips tweezers, that will avoid the balance wheel dangling by the spring, which is extremely delicate and would immediately get distorted if caught into something. Since jewels are not installed there is no risk of bending pivots.
  3. Bring the above into place, including the cock pin into it's hole. Do not worry about the pallet position, nor getting the impulse jewel in place right away. Just let the lower pivot fit into the hole first, then the top. so everything will be square and equally distanced. Do not fit the cock screw yet.
  4. At this point, if you're lucky or have developed the skill already, the jewel will be into place already and the watch will run, even if with a very small amplitude. If it doesn't, with the same tweezers very gently rotate the wheel and feel in which direction it won't move (as the impulse jewel is hitting the outside of the horn), then lift it up a tiny amount to go over it, it will fall in place and start running.
  5. Fit the cock screw, top and bottom jewels, and check with the timegrapher for a baseline pattern and amplitude.
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Does the balance swing freely? If it is hard against a stop in one way then the impulse roller is not in the pallet fork.

If the balance swings but the nothing else (including the escape wheel)  then maybe you're missing the impulse roller.

If it swings and the escape wheel clicks over a few teeth and then stops maybe the watch is out of beat and/or the balance jewels are dirty. Check also the screw for the pallet cock as an incorrect screw (head too thick) here will hit the hs.

The rate-adjuster seems to be a the limit of the '+' .. could be that someone has been playing with this and the stud holder resulting in the watch being too out of beat. 

Your attempt to narrow down the issue to the hairspring (or not) is correct but I would recommend you get a running cheap 70xx series watch off the internet.  You could then swap the balance complete and see if that solves your problem. If you buy a new hairspring (installing it correctly is also a problem) and it does not work.. what then?

Finally.. the million-dollar question.. was the watch working before you started on it?

HTH

Anilv

 

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Thanks guys, some great input there which has given me a good idea of how to proceed. The watch was not working when I got it, but as it was missing one of the pallet stones that's not surprising. Unfortunately I finally knackered the HS after one attempt too many. I have a new HS/balance from Cousins and just have to work out how to get that on the cock then I can start again.


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On 7/31/2017 at 9:59 AM, Pip said:

I have a new HS/balance from Cousins and just have to work out how to get that on the cock then I can start again.

That non-etachron type is not difficult at all, being held with a screw. The new type doesn't have that, so the screwing part is left to the fitter :)

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While the balance is removed, inspect the operation of the pallets (lever) interfacing with the escape wheel. You must check this thoroughly since you have changed the pallets. 

Knock the lever with a needle or a clean oiler from side to side, and check that it appears to want to give "impulse" when you start to move it. 

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