On cleaning.

[skridlov]

Whilst I'm here I'd like to ask what I anticipate will be regarded as a stupid question. Stupid? Well yes but it occurs to me so often that I feel obliged to flush it away or act on it.p.

I've attempted two total dismantle / clean / re-assemble jobs, both on disposable WW1 three finger bridge movements. The first had numerous cracked and broken jewels however I managed to re-assemble it, including re-fitting the balance cock assembly, as an exercise. The second not so good. I managed to destroy the hairspring with the balance cock handled intact. I simply couldn't line up the stem and the thing got away once too often. The prospect of assembling a single bridge that has three jewels is something I'm not sure I could ever manage, and the first attempt at the balance was probably a fluke.

What I was wondering is whether a movement could be US cleaned (using the proper sequence of fluids) with only the barrel bridge, keyless work and balance cock removed - perhaps slackening the bridge screws by half a turn or so to enable a little separation and the gunk to dissolve. 

I'd hoped that doing basic cleaning on relatively simple WW1 era men's watches might be achievable, but I'm beginning to think it may be beyond me.

Roy

[transporter]

Practice mate thats all it takes, stay with it, I love doing those type of movemnts as they are so simple to strip clean and reassemble, (trust me they really are) I started off on Timex movements these are solid plate movements ie you have the bottom plate then all your wheels and mainspring barrel and hairspring that you have to line up all at the same time with the top plate!!!!!

Then you had to re pin the hairspring to the top plate and adjust the screws that hold the hairspring staff in place, it was a learning curve and when i tried my first " normal " movement I found it a breeze.

Enjoy totally stripping these little movements and even if you break them keep them as you will have a load of spares for future use.

As for your question, you could do as you say but in the end you are defeating the object of cleaning it properly and selling yourself short on experience and learning. As i said stick with it, take them apart fully and most of all enjoy, and know when to step away from the bench and have a break, before you actually do break something ( as I have before in the past)

 

[skridlov]

Thanks!

You're right about walking away when repeated attempts fail. I find that difficult as in a previous existence I was responsible for "live" systems in the newspaper industry and there was no walking away (unless you do it irrevocably, which I did.)

It's handling the balance assembly that's most on my mind at the moment as I have a few movements on salable watches which probably only need the balance assembly cleaned to revive them - at least as a rough and ready fix. They aren't worth much. I actually have about a hundred (possibly more) WW1 watches and movements so trashing a few isn't a big deal - and as you say, spares. These are part of the huge stock of unsold "rubbish" that an old mate of mine has accumulated over 30 years or so; I've bought stuff from him for my own satisfaction over the years and thought I'd have a crack at trying to monetise them (which I have in many cases so far). I really need to identify them all and group them by movement. A few of them (Borgels, Hunters etc) are quite nice and very salable.

Having looked at videos on hairspring and balance handling techniques it looks so straightforward... I've got a lot of PW movements too. Maybe I should have a go at one of them on the basis of big is beautiful...

Roy

[WatchMaker]

In agreement with transporter on this one. if you're dealing with watches over a century old then more often than not you're going to need to dismantle to get a proper clean not to mention effective oiling.

However I do empathise with the balance handling difficulties. Practice, technique and a degree of confidence are needed. I've only been doing this hobby a relatively small amount of time and, like you, have had a number of frustrations. On the particular subject of balances below are things simply from my experience; everyone's going to have their preferences!

A really good forum thread recently was http://www.watchrepairtalk.com/topic/6497-removing-balance/ and worth reading if you haven't done so; this discusses two methods for lifting/replacing the balance. In summary one method is to hold the balance wheel and cock together; the other is just to deal with the balance cock and 'dangle' the balance wheel.

I actually use both methods! The first for removal; the second for replacement. Let me try and explain! There's a great likelihood that if the watches you're dealing with haven't been serviced or used in decades that the balance wheel is stuck to some degree. Just trying to remove things via the balance cock will probably mean lift-lift-lift until suddenly the balance wheel pops out ... or damage to the hairspring has been done. I therefore instead gently prise the balance cock up so it is definitely clear of the mainplate and effectively just gently resting there. I then take a fine screwdriver and gently lever the balance wheel up to ensure it is disingaged from the lower jewel. I then lift the balance wheel and cock out of the movement together. I have lots of professional grade tweezers but by far the best for me from trying various ones has been a cheapo pair of bronze 'size 3' tweezers!

For cleaning then I see if I can get away with not dismantling the whole balance assembly; don't fix it if it ain't broke! You'll want to inspect the pivots and assuming they're okay of course but then it's onto cleaning. For this I have a shallow glass dish that I put some isopropyl alcohol in and with a deft movement (practice this!) flip the complete balance assembly over so the balance wheel is resting on the cock. Now place in the dish. You can inspect under a loupe and if some dirt is visible another good technique is to use a simple handheld watch dust blower to agitate the alcohol to dislodge the dirt. Once happy things looks good and clean you then remove the balance assembly and rest on kitchen towel to take off excess fluid and use the dust blower to evaporate the rest. You should now have a good clean balance assembly. 

After assembling the rest of the gear train to check for smooth running the balance goes in last. I use the second technique mentioned above to this by firmly holding just the balance cock and letting the balance dangle from the spring; this makes it easier to align impulse jewel. You then rest the balance cock on the mainplate and gently nudge it into its correct position. Check for free movement all the time whilst gently screwing it back into place.

Sounds easy when writing it ... but I empathise with the frustrations that can sometimes exist. Good luck!

[skridlov]

Thank you so much for taking the time and trouble to offer this lucid description. Very interesting indeed. I wouldn't have guessed that allowing the balance to be suspended from the spring would be a safe procedure. That said, I noticed, last time when I wrecked it, that the spring remained in reasonable shape for several spillages before the elastic limit was reached. That's some very interesting metallurgy.

I have looked at the link previously mentioned some time ago. I'll revisit it shortly. I have a "free week" as ebay suspended my listing "privileges" for a week due to "Mis-categorisation". In fact their classification structure is plain ambiguous - in fact Wrong. In a previous existence I  managed the output end of the world's biggest classified ad database for a number of years. Meanwhile they allow complete misrepresentation, indeed fraudulent, of non-military "military" timepieces.

This is a terrific forum, with more intelligent, civilised content than anywhere else I've come across.

Roy

[WatchMaker]

No problem! Didn't want you giving up when it sounds like you're almost there. I've only learnt my techniques through various trials-and-errors ... and of course the good advice on this forum.

Bad luck on the ebay saga. Although I don't repair clocks it's always worth looking at the Clock Corner forum of this site and read some of @oldhippy 's wittily acerbic comments about the misrepresented, um, rubbish he's spotted on ebay! Ebay carriage clock anyone ... ?! 

 

[skridlov]

Ha ha. @oldhippy... Resonates.

I'm plugging away - and extremely fortunate to have a vast amount of material to play with. Or, unfortunate, depending on how I'm feeling. 

I actually have a mid 18th C recased Fusee clock with amazing pillars up on eBay now. I'm sure there's a general tendency for people to wait out the offer until the price is dropped. Not going to happen with that one.

Roy

Edited June 30, 2017 by skridlov
tyop

[skridlov]

OK, I just finished destroying - I mean servicing - this Borgel movement. At first I thought that all was fine - balance free (more luck than judgement) and initially fired up quite healthily. I have lightly re-lubricated everywhere that I think needs lubrication (correct grease on the keyless work) However I noticed that there was an alignment problem with the s/h which was binding a bit and arresting the movement - something I've encountered many times. However suddenly the balance almost seemed to have seized - at least if rotated clockwise with a small brush it sprang back. Rotating a/c there seemed to be no tension and after a half turn or so it was halted completely. Not a clue... Here are some bad macro shots which may add something to the description. Any clues?

Roy